mrsonic

is there a possibility for the assumption that 500 years after jesus in saudi arabia there was a gospel which was earlier than the cananical ones?
deblois said that the nazarene did not eat swine and prayed towards jerusalem.


paul says

the nasarah, according to Deblois, kept jewish customs/rituals .
qur'an says that the crucifixion is a claim from jewish mouths, i am thinking that the nazerne in arabia denied crucifixion of jesus.

Duvduv

But that would not explain or account for the difference in the nativity storyline or the mistake of identifying Mary with Aaron, which are clear differences.
Nor would it account for why the Quran forbids only pork when Jews would also be forbidden from eating camels and other animals.

It appears to me that the authors of the Quran never actually read Jewish or Christian texts but relied on stories they heard. However I would still imagine that they would have known that the Torah forbids more than just pork, and that Mary was not Aaron's sister and was betrothed to Joseph.

And the stories derived from the midrashim must have been heard as well.

Doug Shaver

Muslims say so.

From what little research I've managed to do so far, nobody actually knows who the real author, or probably authors, were.

I wouldn't be too surprised if there was no real Muhammad. It's not as improbable as a real Jesus, but contemporary attestation to his existence seems just as lacking.

Duvduv

Yes. I know Muslims say he received it from Allah but he couldn't read or write and said over the suras

Unlike Christianity there are no alternative versions of the text and all Muslims claim the same thing about him. But they also claim that a complete Quran did not get produced until after he died. And neither Christians nor Jews offer alternatives about who wrote it. Some scholars detect different types of texts within the Quran that originated from other sects since it is unlikely he was the only teacher of monotheism among the Arabs.

sotto voce

The story is that Muhammad was given a revelation to dictate, in secret, by an angel, over 25 years (and the dictation was subsequently lost). Now even if that has no truth, it says all we need to know about those who cite it as solid ground for a religious belief.

Duvduv

Right, I forgot about the angel Gabriel.....but I never knew that they say it was over a 25 year period.
It is rather interesting though how the Quran has different renderings of the famous nativity story. I wonder if there was some Christian sect who did not include Joseph in the story.

I suppose it is entirely possible that he or whoever wrote the Quran thought they were filtering out the "truth" of events from the legends of the Jews and Christians through the power of Gabriel which would account for the differences. On the other hand they themselves were creating doubts about its authenticity by errors such as suggesting that Mary was the sister of Aaron.
It calls the father of Abraham Uzer instead of Terah. Such blatant errors must indicate that the authors of the Quran did not even read the Christian or Jewish texts but heard them orally and confused different elements.

sotto voce

It's surely optimistic to suppose that the Qur'an was written as an honest attempt to find truth. It is a conscious, deliberate attempt to pervert the biblical message. It is a merely, and transparently, a hotch-potch of inventions, plagiarisms and platitudes whose obvious purpose is to oppose Christianity, and is not a subject for scholarly attention. I could have made a better attempt myself, on a few wet afternoons, never mind over 25 years. As I wrote before, its interest is in the use, or abuse, it has been put to, not in any inherent value.

As if there could be a Christian sect.

Duvduv

Someone named Robert Spencer is coming out with a new book about Mohammed in April in which he argues that for a full 60 years after the assumed date of death of Mohammed there are no records anywhere of him, Islam or the Quran.

Huon

1. The Qur'an was not finalised until well after Mohamed's death
2. Much was lost at Yamama
3. Variant Qur'ans existed in the early days
4. The variants were different to modern Qur'ans
5. Abu Bakr collected his version from scraps and memories
6. Abu Bakr's version faded early from importance
7. Uthmann chose Abu Bakr's version for political expediency
8. Uthmann et al. made changes to the new version
9. Muslims criticised Uthmann for destroying the Qur'an
10. Muslims crticised the new version as missing passages
11. Later changes were made to the Qur'an
12. Variant readings of the Qur'an exist to this day

Huon

The Qur'an was not collected in writing in Mohamed's time :

Narrated Zaid bin Thabit: Abu Bakr as-Siddiq sent for me when the people of Yamama had been killed. Then Abu Bakr said : "... you should search for the Qur'an and collect it ". By Allah! ... Then I said to Abu Bakr, "How will you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?"... (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, p.477).

A great part of the Qur'an was only recited shortly before Mohamed's death :

Narrated Anas bin Malik: Allah sent down his Divine Inspiration to His Apostle (saw) continuously and abundantly during the period preceding his death till He took him unto Him. That was the period of the greatest part of revelation, and Allah's Apostle (saw) died after that. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, p.474).


This shows that the Qur'an was not collected or written down, or finalised before Mohamed's death - the Qur'an only formed years after Mohamed.