Vorkosigan

Your flooding of the group with bible verses is trolling. If you can't explain what you are doing in these posts with charts, labels, and all the other things people use when they explain stuff, you should probably stop.

Sheshbazzar

Using 'Cut and Paste' to create an imagined version of 'gospel' that never existed.

Adam

When I switch from copying from one gospel to another, that's equivalent to switching from one column in a table to another. Nor would tables be appropriate. I do not present here two, three, or four competing passages for consideration, I am picking one that is the best or reasonably equivalent. Thus the text basically reads in order, which would be lost in a table if I were to present Mark, Luke, and John each with its own column filled in for economy of space, but where the subject matter is different horizontally one with each other.

What I present here from Luke represents the portion of Q that we recognize as such from its appearance only in Matthew and Luke (some of which also appears in the Gospel of Thomas), but excluding portions recognizable as q2 by the close verbal similarity deriving from them being later portions written in Greek.
What I present from Mark represents to me what Mark copied from the q1 Aramaic portion of Q, but not obviously recognizable as from Q because also included in both Matthew and Luke. The verbal differences with Luke show us that Mark and Luke independently translated the passages from Aramaic.

What I present from John represents (up through John 17, after which the rules change) the most controversial Discourse material written down before Jesus's trial. I scrupulously list Teeple's sources based on his stylistic criteria, namely his G source plus closely associated E material.

I have no illusions that this "gospel" ever existed. I merely claim three eyewitnesses independently wrote in Aramaic the earliest sources as shown separately here. I merged q1 with John to show that they are not so irreconcilable if you understand the Johannine Discourses as originally written (before John 12) against Jesus, not a fair and complete rendition of what he said. I regard Q as written to tell what had happened before the Passion Narrative, but without merging it with the earlier document. Putting all three together not in a table makes a complete, readable story.

pavlos

Adam have you any extra-biblical verification for your claims? thank you.

Sheshbazzar

A claim that you already shown us you cannot demonstrate to be likely, or valid, or accurate.

Adam

Yes, if you count the Gospel of Thomas as an extra-biblical document. Over thirty sayings in it parallel Q as we define it. Similar sayings in GT parallel sayings in Mark. These sayings also appear in Matthew and Luke, so they don't fit our definition for Q, but evidently stem from the same document(s). They are in the section in Mark (the Twelve-Source) that seems independently translated from Aramaic. This indicates that this is an early source. From outside the Bible we are told that the Gospel of Matthew was a translation. This does not fit the Gospel of Matthew as we know it, so it seems to confirm instead that the Q-Twelve-Source was what was written by the eyewitness Matthew, who comes into the story at about this point (Mark 2:14, Mt. 9:9). This early gospel is what I am presenting in this thread as q1 in Lukan passages and qT (Twelve-Source, the Q portions that got into Mark, thus Triple-Tradition) in Marcan passages.

Adam

[Resuming from Post #27. Anything from Mark is qT (Twelve-Source), from Luke is q1, and from John is the Discourses I regard as written by Nicodemus.]Mark 13:
17 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing infants in those days! 18 Pray that it may not be in winter. 19 For in those days there will be suffering, such as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, no, and never will be. 20 And if the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would be saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he has cut short those days. 21 And if anyone says to you at that time, “Look! Here is the Messiah!”* or “Look! There he is!”—do not believe it. 22 False messiahs* and false prophets will appear and produce signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, the elect. 23 But be alert; I have already told you everything. 24 ‘But in those days, after that suffering, the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling from heaven,
and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
[Note: This above passage Mark 13:17-25 shows the inexact similarities marking qT, but by its content I would mark it and also 1:9-15 and 6:14-16 as q2, whereas the rest of qT Marcan passages I regard as from q1.]
33 Beware, keep alert;* for you do not know when the time will come. 34 It is like a man going on a journey, when he leaves home and puts his slaves in charge, each with his work, and commands the doorkeeper to be on the watch. 35 Therefore, keep awake—for you do not know when the master of the house will come, in the evening, or at midnight, or at cockcrow, or at dawn, 36 or else he may find you asleep when he comes suddenly. 37 And what I say to you I say to all: Keep awake.’
Luke 22:
28 Now when these things begin to take place, stand up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.’
29 Then he told them a parable: ‘Look at the fig tree and all the trees; 30 as soon as they sprout leaves you can see for yourselves and know that summer is already near.
Mark 14:
10 Then Judas Iscariot, who was one of the twelve, went to the chief priests in order to betray him to them. 11 When they heard it, they were greatly pleased, and promised to give him money. So he began to look for an opportunity to betray him.
12 On the first day of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover lamb is sacrificed, his disciples said to him, ‘Where do you want us to go and make the preparations for you to eat the Passover?’ 13 So he sent two of his disciples, saying to them, ‘Go into the city, and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you; follow him, 14 and wherever he enters, say to the owner of the house, “The Teacher asks, Where is my guest room where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?” 15 He will show you a large room upstairs, furnished and ready. Make preparations for us there.’ 16 So the disciples set out and went to the city, and found everything as he had told them; and they prepared the Passover meal.
22 While they were eating, he took a loaf of bread, and after blessing it he broke it, gave it to them, and said, ‘Take; this is my body.’ 23 Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he gave it to them, and all of them drank from it. 24 He said to them, ‘This is my blood of the* covenant, which is poured out for many. 25 Truly I tell you, I will never again drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.’
John 13:
G 1 Jesus, seeing that his hour had come that he should pass from this world to the Father….3 knowing that the Father had given to him all things into (his) hands,…
16 “Truly, truly, I say to you a slave is not greater than his master, nor an apostle than the one having sent him. 17 If you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them….
20 Truly, truly, I say to you, the one receiving anyone I will send, receives me, and the one receiving me, receives the one having sent me.”
John 14:
G 1 “Let not your heart be disturbed; you believe on God, believe on me also. 2 In the house of my Father there are many rooms; and if (there were) not, I would have told you. I am going to prepare a place4 for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will take you to myself, in order that where I am, you also may be. E 4 And where I am going, you know the way.” 5 Thomas says to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going; how do we know the way?” 6 Jesus says to him, G I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. E If you had known me, my Father also you would have known…..8 Philip says to him, show to us the Father, and it will be sufficient for us.” 9 Jesus says to him, “So much time I am with you and you do not know me, Philip? The one having seen me has seen the Father. How do you say, “Show to us the Father”? 10 Do you not believe that G I am in the Father and the Father is in me?” E The words which I say to you G I do not speak from myself. But the Father staying in me does the works themselves. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me; if not, believe on account of the works.
12 Truly, truly, I say to you the one believing on me, the works which I do, that one also will do, and greater than these he will do because I am going to the Father. 13 And whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, in order that the Father may be glorified by the Son. G If you ask me anything in my name, I will give (it). E If you love me, G you will keep my commandments. E And I will ask the Father, and another Paraclete he will give to you, in order that it may be with you forever, 17 the Spirit of Truth, which the world is not able to receive, because it nether sees nor knows it. You know it, because it stays with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphaned; I am coming to you. 19 Still a little (while) and the world will no longer see me, but you will see me, because I live and you will live. 20 On that day you will know that I (am) in my Father and you in me and I in you. 21 The one having my commandments and keeping them, that one is the one loving me. And the one loving me will be kept by my Father, and I will love him and will reveal myself to him. 22 Says to him Judas, “Lord what happened that you are about to reveal yourself to us and not to the world?” 23 Answered Jesus and said to him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word and we will come to him and will make a dwelling place with him. 24 The one not loving me does not keep my words.
G And the word which you hear is not mine, but of the Father having sent me. 125 I have spoken these things to you (while) staying with you. 26 And the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, which the Father will send in my name…will teach you all things.
E And will remind you of all things which I told you. G Peace I leave with you, my peace I give to you; not as the world gives I give to you. E Let not your heart be disturbed no be timid. 28 You have heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I. 29 And now I have told you before it happens, in order that when it happens, you may believe. 30 I will no longer speak much with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in me; 31 but in order that the world may know that I love the Father, and even as the Father has commanded me, thus I do. G Arise let us go from here.”
John 15:
G 1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the farmer. 2 Every branch in me not bearing fruit, he takes it away, and everything bearing fruit, he cleans it in order that it may bear more fruit. R 3 Already you are clean on account of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, and I in you; even as the branch is not able to bear fruit from itself except it remain in the vine, thus neither you (can) unless you remain in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. E The one remaining in me and I in him, this one bears much fruit, because without me you are not able to do anything. G 6 If a person does not remain in me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered, and they gather and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you remain in me E and my words remain in you, G ask whatever you wish and it shall be to you. E 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit, and become my disciple. 9 Even as the Father loved me, I also loved you. G Remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you remain in my love, even as I have kept the commandments of the father and I remain in his love.

G 11 These things I have spoken to you in order that my joy may be in you and your joy may be filled. 12 This is my commandment E that you love one another even as I loved you. 13 Greater love than this has no one, that he lays down his life for the sake of his friends. G 14 You are my friends if you do what I command you. E No longer I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master does; but I called you friends because all things which I heard from my Father I made known to you.
G 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed E in order that you may go and bear fruit and your fruit remain G in order that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give to you. 17 These things I command you in order that you may love one another. G 18 If the world hates you, know that it has hated me first. 19 If you were from the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not from the world, E –but I chose you from the world, on account of this—G the world hates you…. E If they persecuted me, you also they will persecute. If they kept my word, yours also they will keep. 21 But all these things they will do to you on account of my name, because they do not know the one having sent me. 22 Unless I came and spoke to them, they would not have sin. But now they do not have an excuse for their sin. G 23 The one hating me also hates my Father. E 24 If I did not do the works among them which no one other did, they would not have sin. But now they have both seen and have hated me and my Father…. 26 E Whenever the Paraclete comes which I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of Truth which proceeds from the Father, that one will testify about me. 27 And you also testify, because from the beginning you are with me.”
John 16:
E 1 I have spoken these things to you in order that you may not stumble. 2 They will ban you from the synagogues. But the hour comes that everyone killing you will think he offers service to God. 3 And they will do these things because they know neither the Father nor me. But I have spoken these things to you in order that whenever the hour has come, you will remember them, because I told you. 5 And now I go to the one having sent me, and no one of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’
G 6 But because I have spoken these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7 But I say the truth to you: it is advantageous for you that I go away. For if I do not go away, the Paraclete will not come to you; but if I go, I will send it to you. E 8 And coming that one will convict the world about sin and about righteousness and about judgment. 9 About sin because they do not believe on me; 10 and about righteousness because I am going to the Father and no longer you will see me; 11 and about judgment because the ruler of this world has been judged.
G 12 I have still many things to say to you, but you are not able to hear (them) now. 13 But whenever that one comes, the Spirit of Truth, it will guide you into all truth. For it will not speak from itself, but whatever it hears it will speak, and the coming things it will proclaim to you. 14 That one will glorify me, because it will receive from me and proclaim to you.
E 15 All things whatsoever the Father has are mine. On account of this I say that it receives from me and proclaims to you. 16 A little (while) and no longer you will see me, and again al little (while) and you will see me.” 17 Then some of his disciples said to one another, “What is this which he says to us, ‘A little (while) and no longer you will see me, and again a little (while) and you will see me, ‘ and ‘because I am going to the Father’?” 18 Then they were saying, “What is this, ‘a little (while)’? We do not know.” 19 Jesus knew that they wanted to ask him, and he said to them, “About this are you deliberating with one another because I said, “A little (while) and you will not see me, and again a little (while) and you will see me.’? 20 Truly, truly, I say to you that you will weep and you will lament, but the world will rejoice; you will be sorrowful, but you sorrow will become into joy. 21 Whenever a woman is in travail, she has sorrow because her hour has come; but when she has given birth to the child, she no longer remembers the anguish on account of the joy that a man has been born into the world. 22 Then you also have sorrow; but again I will see you and your heart will rejoice, and your joy no one takes from you. 23 And on that day you will not ask me anything.
G Truly, truly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father, he will give to you in my name. 24 Until now you have not asked anything in my name. Ask, and you will receive, in order that your joy may be filled. 25 These things in figures I have spoken to you; the hour comes when no longer in figures I will speak to you, but in plainness about the Father I will proclaim to you. 26 On that day in my name you will ask E and I do not say to you that I will ask G the Father. 27 For the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me E and have believed that I came forth from God. G 28 I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I am leaving the world and going to the Father.
E 29 His disciples say, “Behold, now you speak in plainness, and you do not say a figure (of speech). 30 Now we know that you know all things and do not have need that anyone ask you;… 31 Answered them Jesus…. G 32…And I am not alone, because the Father is with me. 33 These things I have spoken to you in order that you may have peace in me. In the world you have affliction, but have courage. I have conquered the world.”

Sheshbazzar

'Seems' to be by -whom- Adam?

What are your qualifications in the reading and translation of ancient Aramaic? or in the skill of identifying translations derived from ancient Aramaic?

What recognized scholars, proficient in the ancient Aramaic language, can you identify that support your view that these portions of Mark were 'independently translated' from Aramaic?


.

pavlos

No sorry! That doesn't work. There are far too many gnostic interpolations.
Also there is evidence of historical anachronism and faulty attributions.
So no the gospel of Thomas isn't any use to your argument. Anything else.

Adam

Maurice Casey has a book for both Mark and Q that they come from Aramaic.
Some chapters in Mark and Luke are so close that they were copied from Greek text. (Even I will concede that the borrowing was from Mark to Luke.)
The remaining several chapters must have been independently translated. The only language suggested any more is Aramaic.

The other standard option is Oral Tradition. But this presupposition has failed. Alan Kirk in the Jan. 2012 New Testament Studies "Orality, Writing, and Phantom Sources..." concludes that the orality theories of Baum, Dunn, and somewhat of Mournet are all flawed. Time for my new paradigm, as assuming either written Greek or Oral Tradition or any combination does not work.