Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Kosh · 07-26-2006, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helpmabob

If I may indulge in a little prophecy of my own. You’re looking for proof – it is something you will never have in this life, unless you turn to God.

WTF kind of kindergarten level reason is this?

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I'll try: Christ prophesied that He would be raised three days after His death. Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." [John 2:19]

Correction: A book, written around 70 CE, claims that around 30 CE, Jesus said he would be raised from the dead. That same book makes the claim that it was fullfilled.

Do you have evidence that the prophecy came true, and that it was prophesized, other than a book written 40 years after the alleged event?

aa5874 · 07-26-2006, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mythra

Have you taken a good look at many of the "fulfilled" prophecies cited in the NT? Matthew in particular?
Most are strained, if not downright deceptive.
It's my conviction that the gospel writers had the Septuagint in their hands as they inserted details into the gospel story that would fit - thereby insuring "prophecy" fulfilled.

The book of Matthew virtually destroys the Christian Bible. All of its so-called prophecies are taken out of context in a horrible fashion. The Book of Matthew should be de-canonised. After reading the Book of Matthew, I am of the opinion that the author's sight was impaired.

aa5874 · 07-26-2006, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helpmabob

Yes the fulfilled prophesies are a strong pointer to the worthiness of the Bible. But the best advocate for biblical belief is usually overlooked. That is for someone to strive to live a biblically based life - trusting in God and grasping the promises made by God in the Bible. That is when the worthiness really becomes personally meaningful.

The Christian Bible has no prophetic value. There is nothing in the Bible that can predict with any resonable degree of certainty the outcome of any event in the Universe. There is no evidence that the Christian Bible is the Word of God. All Gods are known to be mythical.

Jack the Bodiless · 07-27-2006, 01:41 AM

Helpmabob:

Quote:

There are no "fulfilled prophecies" anywhere in the Bible. So how can they be a "pointer" to anything?

Sure there are. "Therefore my people will know my name;therefore in that day they will know that it is I who foretold it. Yes, it is I." [Isaiah 52:6]His people worldwide today know His name.

...Huh? Why do you imagine this is a "prophecy"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isaiah

Isaiah 52:4 For thus saith the Lord Jehovah, My people went down at the first into Egypt to sojourn there: and the Assyrian hath oppressed them without cause.

Isaiah 52:5 Now therefore, what do I here, saith Jehovah, seeing that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them do howl, saith Jehovah, and my name continually all the day is blasphemed.

Isaiah 52:6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore [they shall know] in that day that I am he that doth speak; behold, it is I.

It appears to be referring primarily to the Exodus: the "sojourn in Egypt", when God supposedly revealed himself to Moses. And there is no evidence that God has actually "revealed his name" to anyone: merely that many people have heard of Judaism and Christianity (and Islam, Hinduism etc etc). And there are still some who have not.

You don't seem to understand what a "fulfilled prophecy" would actually look like.

Sauron · 07-27-2006, 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helpmabob

Yes the fulfilled prophesies are a strong pointer to the worthiness of the Bible.

Which ones?
Be specific.

Quote:

But the best advocate for biblical belief is usually overlooked. That is for someone to strive to live a biblically based life - trusting in God and grasping the promises made by God in the Bible. That is when the worthiness really becomes personally meaningful.

None of this has anything to do with prophecy. Congratulations on missing the point of the thread 100%.

Sauron · 07-27-2006, 01:47 AM

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Originally Posted by one allegiance

Wow. Some of the worst sites I have ever seen. The first one is just bad.

Insufficient. Why is it bad?

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The second one just jumps to conclusions and the third is just pulling at threads.

Also insufficient.

Be specific. No one gives a shit about your generalized comments.

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In the first one it is says that a prophesy NOT OF THE BIBLE hasn't been fulfilled. Ok...great...it isn't supposed to be. And in the others, I won't even mention the nit-picking,

You're going to have to.

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they are trying to claim that prophecies that haven't come to pass yet have failed. How do they know when the prophecy is supposed to be fulfilled?

Probably by listening to christians who claim that the prophecies HAVE been fulfilled?

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Which brings up a another point...most of the prophecies in the bible, especially concerning israel, haven't happened yet b/c they aren't supposed to happen yet.

Says who? What authority has said that these prophecies weren't supposed to happen already?

And how do you explain the failure of prophecies that were supposed to have happened in the past, but failed to do so?

Helpmabob · 07-31-2006, 09:06 AM

Hi Kosh -

Quote:

WTF kind of kindergarten level reason is this?

I have perfectly rational reasons for holding the opinion that scientific proof of God will never be found in this life.

Hi aa5874 -

Quote:

The Christian Bible has no prophetic value. There is nothing in the Bible that can predict with any resonable degree of certainty the outcome of any event in the Universe. There is no evidence that the Christian Bible is the Word of God. All Gods are known to be mythical.

The evidence is available, but for me this is mainly trust based. It is helpful to define prophecy here: Prophecy: a statement that says what is going to happen in the future, especially one which is based on what you believe about a particular matter rather than existing facts. The Bible therefore contains a lot of prophecy. As I read it, the thread topic doesn’t require us to provide physical evidence of a fulfilled prophecy.

Hi Jack the Bodiless -

Quote:

It appears to be referring primarily to the Exodus: the "sojourn in Egypt", when God supposedly revealed himself to Moses. And there is no evidence that God has actually "revealed his name" to anyone: merely that many people have heard of Judaism and Christianity (and Islam, Hinduism etc etc). And there are still some who have not.

Probably, but do you not admit that it might, perhaps allude to something else, prophetically.

Quote:

You don't seem to understand what a "fulfilled prophecy" would actually look like.

Look like, maybe no, feel like as an experience – maybe yes.

EarlOfLade · 07-31-2006, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by one allegiance

Wow. Some of the worst sites I have ever seen. The first one is just bad. The second one just jumps to conclusions and the third is just pulling at threads. In the first one it is says that a prophesy NOT OF THE BIBLE hasn't been fulfilled. Ok...great...it isn't supposed to be. And in the others, I won't even mention the nit-picking, they are trying to claim that prophecies that haven't come to pass yet have failed. How do they know when the prophecy is supposed to be fulfilled? Which brings up a another point...most of the prophecies in the bible, especially concerning israel, haven't happened yet b/c they aren't supposed to happen yet.

bad? I guess in your eyes if you believe in prophecies.

Can you give me some examples of what is bad and why?

All you do is post what I call a "whaaaaaambulance post" and nothing of substance.

Kosh · 07-31-2006, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helpmabob

The evidence is available, but for me this is mainly trust based. It is helpful to define prophecy here: Prophecy: a statement that says what is going to happen in the future, especially one which is based on what you believe about a particular matter rather than existing facts. The Bible therefore contains a lot of prophecy. As I read it, the thread topic doesn’t require us to provide physical evidence of a fulfilled prophecy.

OMG! Please do us all a big favor and make sure you never serve on a Jury...

Johnny Skeptic · 07-31-2006, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helpmabob

Yes, the fulfilled prophesies are a strong pointer to the worthiness of the Bible.

Please give us some examples.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helpmabob

But the best advocate for biblical belief is usually overlooked. That is for someone to strive to live a biblically based life - trusting in God and grasping the promises made by God in the Bible. That is when the worthiness really becomes personally meaningful.

That is false. The best advocate for biblical belief would be if God were to clearly reveal himself to everyone. If Jesus exists, if he returned to earth and performed miracles all over the world, surely some people would become Christians who were not previously convinced. No loving God could do anything less. He wouldn't have any choice. His loving nature would compel him to do so.

I find that it is impossible for me to will myself to love a God who claims that he loves me enough to reveal himself to me, but not to everyone. If you had fifteen children, would you teach all of them about the Bible, or just one of them? If the latter, would you be surprised if you were ostracized from Christian society? If you had four children and they were drowning, if you had an opportunity to save all of them but saved only one of them, would you be surprised if you were ostracized by virtually everyone? Under such a scenario, you would no doubt be sent to a mental institution for treatment, or prosecuted in a court of law for negligence.

Mafia members treat some people well, but they also mistreat some people. Is it your position that God never mistreats anyone? Do you endorse two separate moral codes, one for God, and one for humans, two codes that are frequently directly opposed to one another?

Have you by any chance ever experienced a miracle healing?

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