No Robots

We've been over this, Clive:

Draper calls Islam "the Southern Reformation". So, in this view, both Islam and Protestantism started as reactions against Christian orthodoxy. While most of Protestantism remains Trinitarian, the Unitarians come close to the anti-Trinitarian position of Islam. I like to call Muslims militant Unitarians.

I guess it is possible that contact with the Muslims helped trigger the Reformation. This is certainly true of the Renaissance. Direct influence of Islam on the Reformation would be difficult to establish.

Werbert

Islam started out in Arabia. Was the Christian influence there strong enough that Islam could be called a reaction against Christian orthodoxy?

Or do you mean that Islam's rapid spread into formerly Christian-held lands was due to opposition to Christianity?

No Robots

Yes, Christianity was well established throughout the Near East, and was familiar enough in Arabia. Mohammed was influenced by the anti-Trinitarian ideas of groups like the Nestorians that Constantinople was fighting. The rapid spread of Islam was in large measure due to the oppressive orthodoxy imposed by Constantinople: anyone who didn't see Christ as a god was likely to get a better deal with the Muslims.

Werbert

Ah, that makes sense, considering the Byzantine Empire was as Greek as a gyro. That made it easier for Islam to pry loose the territory on the fringes of the empire. So I guess Islam can sort of be considered an early form of Protestantism.

Of course, that begs the question, can Christianity itself be considered a form of Protestantism with regard to Judaism?

Atticus_Finch

FYI, I think you are misinterpreting what he means by the fall of the Roman Empire. You are pointing to the fall of Rome and the Western Empire. However, the Roman Empire continued, in some historian's views, into the 15th Century when Constantinoble fell.

Regards,

Finch

No Robots

Of course it is.

Malachi151

Yes, but: "the consequent decline of Western civilization in the Middle Ages"

Who would say that Western Civilization declined after the 15h century? This, to me can only be talk about a decline in the 7th-13th centuries? I guess, I dunno, it's confusing. Germanic invasions? That's usually associated with the 3rd-5th centuries eh?

Werbert

That's what I meant. The first poster is trying to connect an article written about events that took place after the fall of the first Roman Empire with the Protestant movement.

And, if you want to get picky, the last "Roman Empire" ended in 1945, with the fall of the Third Reich.

Lugubert

Protestantism is reactionary vs. Catholicism of course, and some flavours could be labeled puritan, but I find no Christian pro-circumcision tendencies outside of the US. For example, I think it is quite safe to say that in (still mainly) Evangelical Lutheran Sweden, genital mutilation of boys is only performed among Jews and (perhaps) Muslims.

Clivedurdle

I can see I have not been clear enough!

Islam may have been a major cause of the severe weakening of the Roman Empire - Johnson quotes Pirenne about the wealth of a German monastery just before Islam and that it had goods and spices from all over Asia and Africa.

Post Islam, similar monastery only has local produce and average size of cattle has fallen.

So we have the Dark Ages.

Then in 1453 Islam finally conquers the last main bastion of the Roman Empire causing a Diaspora to Venice and the Renaissance.

But not only Roman thinking gets spread - Islamic puritan ideas also spread - they have two very clever conversion methods - convert or die, convert or pay higher taxes.


Some people think I'll take a rain check on this and escape, but take Islamic puritan ideas with them to critique catholicism.

Result - Protestantism in one of its flavours, and America!