Roller

I'm still in flux as to what to think about that. I mean, clearly by Clement's time it was obvious that the end didn't come. Therefore it was time to punt it?

Toto

Onesiphorus means "bringing profit." Did the meaning of his name turn him into a rich man in the gnostic gospels? or is it an indication of his fictional nature?

Onesiphorus was not a common name - I can find no mention of anyone named Onesiphorus before this time. There is some speculation that Onesiphorus was the same person as Onesimus, since that name has the same meaning. (ibiblio post by Richard Fellows from corpus-paul) Onesimus was a slave; he might have changed his name, or the author of 2 Tim might have misremembered it from other Pauline epistles.

Onesiphorus got around. He is a character in 2 Timothy; he comes to Rome from his home in Ephesus to help Paul out.

Steve Weiss

Yes, and even more so, there is a fundamental opposition between those who are of this world and those who orient themselves toward a non-existent other world or the supernatural. These values systems are at war and cannot co-exist. The Christian message is that one should not exist, one should be self-sacrificing as symbolized by Jesus on the cross. The material is the nasty and the low while the spiritual is supposed to be the elevated and the perfect. Any concern for the here and now would be a diversion from the heavenly and godlike in Christianity. To be rich is to be unspiritual, so one must choose between the two. Of course, giving everything to the Church would be first prize.

stephan huller

I think people read the gospel like people watch TV - i.e. unaware of the medium. Very few of us are conscious that the television is sending moving pictures into our brain when we watch it. We kind of 'let go of our consciousness' and then Kim Kardashian is literally inside our heads. I find most people are like that with the gospel even those who engage in critical examination of the text.

The place to begin is that we don't have the original 'facts' of the ministry of Jesus but Mark's original reworking of those facts according to some literary purpose. What Jesus was originally preaching or not preaching might have had very little to do with Mark's re-examination of the original phenomenon. Look at the differences between Plato's account of Socrates and that of Xenophon.

I think Mark was originally more interested in the destruction of Jerusalem. The Jesus story was originally developed into a warning about the end of the center of Jewish life. Maybe this wasn't as important to Jesus but it is at the core of Mark's literary purpose in writing the narrative.

steve_bnk

I am under the impression The Eye Of The Needle refered to a narrow gate or passgeway in Jerusalem.


From Paul food was an issue. He relaxed the kosher laws. James is highly critical of the rich. Poverty was an issue.

'GIve us this day our daily bread' in the Lord's Prayer was not an ilde prayer over a bountiful table. it was giving thanls for enough food for one more day.

JC, unlike our modern wealthy evangelicals, hung around with the lowwer class people. His dispciples were the likes of fishermen. Acording to the NT he did not preach a material succes gospel as we see today, if you are a slave be a good one, the reward is in the here-after.

American Chrtianity has a contngent of the 'sucees gospsel' chuirches. God wants you tp be materialy succesful. Chiurch leaders make no excuses for gettiing wealthy via their churches.

The work around is referencing the ancient Jews who were more like early liberterians. The idea that the indivual keeps the fruits of labor arose in the midst of slavery and aristiocratic monarchies like Egypt.

The early Jews were likley unique, one owes personal allegiance to a montheistic god. not a divine ruler/god and the associted tribute.

Most notably going by the NT as we have it JC did not put an effort into making money for himself. On the question of healing powers, JC told his disciples not to charge for using that which was giiven frreely to them.

I'd say JC was saying the wealthy have problems getting into heaven....

mountainman

I think it exemplifies the modus operandi of the gnostic author(s), closer to the latter - fictional nature. The names used and expanded upon in the gnostic gospels were all "lifted" -- identity thefts -- from the books of the canonical NT.


He appears as a brief mention in the books of the canon. He is "lifted" and expanded upon by the gnostics. "The Acts of Titus" for example - authored by "Zenos the Lawyer". The list is large, and all the mappings are sourced in the NT.

Fictional character invention and deployment. The orthodox started it. The Gnostics copied it. The orthodox outlawed the gnostics and burnt the illegal gospels and acts of the saviour and apostles and then rewrote the history of the conflict.

Minimalist

Plato's comment:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...section%3D742e

So, if there were a jesus and if he then actually made such a comment it would seem that the idea was plagiarized from much older Greek writings.

In any case, Plato goes on to comment that the rich cannot be happy which current events suggest that he did not know what he was talking about. The super rich seem quite happy. It's the poor who always get the short end of the stick and xtianity gives them nothing but lip service.

PhilosopherJay

Hi Toto,

This is an excellent question.

If we look at the 44 names of American Presidents, none of them seem to have anything to do with ruing or power. One could see Milliard "Fillmore," or Ulysses S. "Grant" as fictional names of Presidents perhaps, but it is a stretch to say that they became president because people thought they would "fill more" or "grant" their wishes.

On the other hand, of the 80 or so Bond girls that have appeared in the 26 James Bond movie, about 1/4 have suggestive names with sexual or spy connotations.

Honey Rider
Sylvia Trench
Pussy Galore
Kissy Suzuki
Plenty O'Toole
Mary Goodnight
Chew Mee
Xenia Onatopp
Tiffany Case
Ling
Bonita
Bibi Dahl
Rubavitch
Kara Milovy
Octopussy
Fiona Volpe
Jenny Flex
Pan Ho
Christmas Jones
Molly Warmflash

This suggests to me that in modern times, at least, a name suggestive of an occupation or a personality characteristic would likely be in a work of fiction.

We should perhaps on this basis recognize Justin Martyr (Righteous eyewitness) as a fictional character.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

stephan huller

But Justin or Justus was a very common name in the period. I quicker think he might have something to do with Justus bar Pistus (compare Justinus Priscus).

mountainman

Thanks for this reference Minimalist