Freethought & Rationalism Archive

GakuseiDon · 11-15-2010, 01:54 PM

Haha! Earl, if people saw me walking around in my naked glory, they would immediately say, "There is no God!"

dogsgod · 11-15-2010, 04:02 PM

Out of curiosity, what is the best evidence for a Jesus? Is there one thing in particular that comes to mind?

Juststeve · 11-15-2010, 04:24 PM

I’d say the cumulative case made up of Paul, the Gospels, Josephus, Tacitus and the development of a church based on the worship of Jesus in the first century.

Steve

arnoldo · 11-15-2010, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Fitzgerald won an honorable mention in the 2009 Mythicism competition with "Ten beautiful lies." He has now apparently self published this as Nailed: Ten Christian Myths That Show Jesus Never Existed at All (or via: amazon.co.uk).

The Friendly Atheist has an excerpt.

Quote:

Doesn’t it just make more sense to assume that there was a historical Jesus, even if we are unable to recover the real facts about his life and death? As it turns out, no. The opposite is true: the closer we look at the evidence for Jesus, the less solid evidence we find; and the more we find suspicious silences and curious resemblances to the pagan and Jewish religious ideas and philosophies that preceded Christianity. And once you begins to parse out the origins of this tradition or that teaching from their various sources, the sweater begins unraveling quickly until it becomes very difficult to buy that there ever was –- or even could have been –- any historical figure at the center.

Christianity, like all religious movements, was born from mythmaking; and nowhere is this clearer than when we examine the context from which Jesus sprang. The supposed historical underpinning of Jesus, which apologists insist differentiates their Christ from the myriad other savior gods and divine sons of the ancient pagan world, simply does not hold up to investigation.

I prefer to read the old mythicist book by the Emperor Julian

Quote:

It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that the fabrication of the Galilaeans is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. Though it has in it nothing divine, by making full use of that part of the soul which loves fable and is childish and foolish, it has induced men to believe that the monstrous tale is truth. Now since I intend to treat of all their first dogmas, as they call them, I wish to say in the first place that if my readers desire to try to refute me they must proceed as if they were in a court of law and not drag in irrelevant matter, or, as the saying is, bring counter-charges until they have defended their own views. For thus it will be better and clearer if, when they wish to censure any views of mine, they undertake that as a separate task, but when they are defending themselves against my censure, they bring no counter-charges.
AGAINST THE GALILAEANS

Toto · 11-15-2010, 07:15 PM

The Emperor Julian was not a mythicist.

Switch89 · 11-15-2010, 07:40 PM

It's funny this should be posted now. I just printed the schedule for this year's Skepticon and Fitzgerald will be speaking the first day of the event.

arnoldo · 11-16-2010, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The Emperor Julian was not a mythicist.

So are you stating that the Emperor Julian believed in a historical, rather than mythical Jesus? BTW, for those interested the following is a list of Mr. Fitzgerald's ten myths.

Quote:

MYTH No. 1: The idea that Jesus was a myth is ridiculous!
MYTH No. 2: Jesus was wildly famous – but there was no reason for contemporary historians to notice him…
MYTH No. 3: Ancient historian Flavius Josephus wrote about Jesus
MYTH No. 4: Eyewitnesses wrote the Gospels
MYTH No. 5: The Gospels give a consistent picture of Jesus
MYTH No. 6: History confirms the Gospels
MYTH No. 7: Archeology confirms the Gospels
MYTH No. 8: Paul and the Epistles corroborate the Gospels
MYTH No. 9: Christianity began with Jesus and his apostles
MYTH No. 10: Christianity was a totally new and different miraculous overnight success that changed the world!

http://www.nazarethmyth.info/mythicist_prize.html

Toto · 11-16-2010, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The Emperor Julian was not a mythicist.

So are you stating that the Emperor Julian believed in a historical, rather than mythical Jesus?

That's what I am saying. The worst insult that the Emperor Julian could think of was to say that Jesus was a mere man.

arnoldo · 11-16-2010, 06:18 PM

Interestingly, in his essay, Mr. Fitzgerald makes the argument that the historicity of Caesar crossing of the Rubicon in 49 B.C. can be verified in part by historians such as Seutonius. Note (from essay previously cited),

Quote:

. . . Fourth, almost every historian of the period reports the Rubicon crossing including the most prominent of the Roman age: Suetonius, Appian, Cassius Dio, and Plutarch. . .

Therefore Seutonius’s account of Jews revolting in Rome in 49 A.D. at the instigation of Chrestus cannot be easily dismissed as a myth.

Quote:

In The Life of Claudius 25.4, we find the statement, "As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome."
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/suetonius.html

Toto · 11-16-2010, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

... Seutonius’s account of Jews revolting in Rome in 49 A.D. at the instigation of Chrestus cannot be easily dismissed as a myth.

Quote:

In The Life of Claudius 25.4, we find the statement, "As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome."
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/suetonius.html

But who was Chrestus? Why think that this has any relationship to one Jesus Christ who never visited Rome, as far as we know?

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11-15-2010, 01:54 PM	#11
GakuseiDon Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 5,714	Haha! Earl, if people saw me walking around in my naked glory, they would immediately say, "There is no God!"

11-15-2010, 04:02 PM	#12
dogsgod Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: British Columbia Posts: 104	Out of curiosity, what is the best evidence for a Jesus? Is there one thing in particular that comes to mind?

11-15-2010, 04:24 PM	#13
Juststeve Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Dallas Texas Posts: 758	I’d say the cumulative case made up of Paul, the Gospels, Josephus, Tacitus and the development of a church based on the worship of Jesus in the first century. Steve

11-15-2010, 07:15 PM	#15
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The Emperor Julian was not a mythicist.

11-15-2010, 07:40 PM	#16
Switch89 Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Montgomery, AL Posts: 453	It's funny this should be posted now. I just printed the schedule for this year's Skepticon and Fitzgerald will be speaking the first day of the event.

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