Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 06-22-2012, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

What do we know from the text of the epistles, assuming for the sake of argument that they are some reflection of reality?...

No, No, No, Toto you do NOT have to assume anything for the sake of argument. That is what some people do around here and the next thing you know their ASSUMPTIONS are used as sources of history.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

....Paul followed a Jesus cult after receiving a divine revelation. We don't know the contents of this cult before he became a member.

Peter was in some group that followed the Torah. What do we know about them? Nothing much. It is assumed by HJ researchers that they were some early version of the Ebionites, or "Jewish Christians," but evidence of this has escaped me. They followed the Torah - were they standard Jews? What did they think about Jesus? Did they care any more about Jesus' life on earth than Paul? Who knows? :huh:

So what would Peter and Paul talk about? The only topic Paul associates with Peter (assuming FTSOA that Peter is Cephas) is the issue of table fellowship - can you eat with non-Jewish gentiles who do not keep kosher. This is also the issue for a dramatic scene in Acts, where Peter gets a divine revelation that all foods are clean and edible.

So I think that was the issue that had to be worked over, and it might have taken a few weeks. And if they figured out that, the next issue would be circumcision.

I am waiting for some evidence that the Jerusalem Church and Peter cared about the Historical Jesus, as opposed to the Torah.

Now that you have ASSUMED all these things about Paul, what's next??? More Assumptions???

It is time we begin to deal with the ACTUAL dated Texts and sources that are compatible with them and avoid all these assumptions.

It is virtually impossible to re-construct the biography of Paul on Assumptions because anyone can ASSUME anything at anytime.

But we have Forgeries that attempted to place Paul before the death of Nero and Apologetic sources that claim Paul was ALIVE AFTER gLuke and After Revelation by John was written.

We also have NO dated sources for the Pauline writings in the 1st century.

Let us reason together.

Let us NOT assume anything.

We have evidence that Paul was most likely NOT a 1st century character.

It cannot be ASSUMED that Paul met the Apostle Cephas and discussed anything with him in Jerusalem.

outhouse · 06-22-2012, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I didn't want this to get lost. Mark Goodacre seems to think it is obvious that Peter told Paul all about the historical Jesus, but I don't see why that is obvious or even probable.

I dont think its probable either.

I dont trust paul being a known self proclaimed apostle.

in doing so he wants to identify with the real apostles, being one would also including a possible fictional meeting and identifying himslef with the group as a whole. [as a option]

I dont think this is even plausible depending on how long he was hunting down this early sect. It would have been common knowledge paul was bad news. paul knew this.

spin · 06-22-2012, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Mark Goodacre seems to think it is obvious that Peter told Paul all about the historical Jesus, but I don't see why that is obvious or even probable.

We should call it for what it is: speculative fiction.

stephan huller · 06-22-2012, 05:16 PM

And people like Goodacre express such certainty. It is very annoying. It must have been a bad picture but the first time I saw his photo I thought he was a she pretending to be a he.

Still not a hundred percent certain what we are dealing with here.

I saw Chastity Bono can grow facial hair so I don't know if this permanent baby face is an indication of anything.

spin · 06-22-2012, 05:37 PM

Oh, you are a wicked twisted fiend, Stephan Huller. You leave that nice Mark Goodacre alone.

stephan huller · 06-22-2012, 05:45 PM

or is it Marcia? Does anyone know if he can grow facial hair? University professors usually go for the slovenly I-bathed-yesterday-and-rolled-out-of-my-bed-already-dressed look. Not Mark. It looks like he hasn't even gone through puberty yet.

stephan huller · 06-22-2012, 05:49 PM

The soccer picture is priceless. It came up on the Google image search for his name. I've been giggling to myself here for the last five minutes straight. Sign of losing your mind I am told. Although I think it's worse if you do it with a full belly laugh. Then you're a hundred percent gone I am told.

Toto · 06-22-2012, 07:42 PM

What am I supposed to do with this?

We're trying to have a serious, sober, discussion about important cultural issues here. Mark Goodacre is a noted Biblical scholar whose work has survived peer review. So he hasn't hired an image consultant.

:banghead:

thief of fire · 06-22-2012, 08:15 PM

Toto, Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 5:12-13 , "what business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? " . So why then, is he judging Peter ? Unless Peter is in "the church"?

Toto · 06-22-2012, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thief of fire

Toto, Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 5:12-13 , "what business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? " . So why then, is he judging Peter ? Unless Peter is in "the church"?

I don't see the relevance here. In 1 Cor Paul called for expelling sinners from the church, and said he had no business judging those outside the church - god would take care of them.

He had some affiliation with Peter, but what was it based on? That's not clear.

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06-22-2012, 05:16 PM	#14
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	And people like Goodacre express such certainty. It is very annoying. It must have been a bad picture but the first time I saw his photo I thought he was a she pretending to be a he. Still not a hundred percent certain what we are dealing with here. I saw Chastity Bono can grow facial hair so I don't know if this permanent baby face is an indication of anything.

06-22-2012, 05:37 PM	#15
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	Oh, you are a wicked twisted fiend, Stephan Huller. You leave that nice Mark Goodacre alone.

06-22-2012, 05:45 PM	#16
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	or is it Marcia? Does anyone know if he can grow facial hair? University professors usually go for the slovenly I-bathed-yesterday-and-rolled-out-of-my-bed-already-dressed look. Not Mark. It looks like he hasn't even gone through puberty yet.

06-22-2012, 05:49 PM	#17
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The soccer picture is priceless. It came up on the Google image search for his name. I've been giggling to myself here for the last five minutes straight. Sign of losing your mind I am told. Although I think it's worse if you do it with a full belly laugh. Then you're a hundred percent gone I am told.

06-22-2012, 07:42 PM	#18
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	What am I supposed to do with this? We're trying to have a serious, sober, discussion about important cultural issues here. Mark Goodacre is a noted Biblical scholar whose work has survived peer review. So he hasn't hired an image consultant. :banghead:

06-22-2012, 08:15 PM	#19
thief of fire Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: springfield Posts: 1,140	Toto, Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 5:12-13 , "what business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? " . So why then, is he judging Peter ? Unless Peter is in "the church"?

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