sschlichter

ok, Luke then...

the women saw two Angels that looked like men...

(Luke 24:4) While they were perplexed about this, suddenly two men stood beside them in dazzling attire.

the women reported the story and clarified that they were Angels..

(Luke 24:23) and when they did not find his body, they came back and said they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive.

That is exactly what you asked for. A case where Luke saying man is referring to an Angel.

Also, Acts 12:15 Peter, a man mistaken for an angel.

Matthew described the Angels more specifically because he was writing to a Jewish audience where his "appearance like lightning, clothes white as snow" were allusions to verses like Ezek 1:13 and Dan 10:6.

Mark and Luke did not write to Jews and their readers were not going to draw from the same knowledge of these descriptions.

The OT references are relevant because that is where knowledge of Angels begins. Mark and Luke are consistent with the Old Testament because Angels, when they appear, appear as men (Gen 18:2, 19:1, Judg 13:6, as examples).


~Steve

sschlichter

:wave:

aa5874

Again, you are supplying mis-leading information. You do not know when gMatthew was written, you do not know if any Jew did read gMatthew in the 1st century. And you do not where gMatthew was first circulated.

And further, any-one reading the Septuagint or Greek translations of the Jewish Scriptures could understand gMatthew if it was written and circulated in Greek.

angelo

Precisely my point. I recently told the story of Apollonius of Tyna to a christian friend of mine. His response was; You are telling me the story of Jesus.
When I pointed out that this fellow lived decades after Jesus and yet you believe one myth over another that is similar, then why would you believe in Jesus and not this fellow who is an almost clone of Jesus?

andrewcriddle

One of the problems with the account of Apollonius by Philostratus is that it is quite possibly a deliberate imitation of the Gospel accounts of Jesus
See for example Apollonius and his Historicity

Andrew Criddle

sschlichter

If I find a book with pop-ups and very colorful, in English about the US Presidents, can I form a hypothesis about to whom and when it was written?


It was translated into the Greek language so Jews that were Hellenized could read it, not so Greeks could read it.

~Steve

aa5874

Well, if that is the case, if all the oldest ancient versions of the NT are found in languages that do not include any Hebrew language, can I form an hypothesis about to whom and when it was written?



Again, this is just speculation. Can you provide credible information that gMatthew was translated to Greek from some other language.

Amaleq13

This belief is held by some because Eusebius tells us that Papias made that claim about a Gospel connected to Matthew but most experts do not find this claim supported by the actual text. It appears to them to have been originally written in Greek.

thentian

Look, you can't support the verses under discussion with themselves! I obviously meant some other verses than the very ones we are discussing! Grr! Additionally, I must remind you of what you yourself wrote in post #971: "Angel means messenger. A messenger can be a man." It is not at all clear that the women in Luke 24:23 think they have seen an actual angel. They report having had a vision of a messenger. I'm sure you'll agree that God can use normal humans as messengers. We have no reason to think that these messengers were anything more.

Acts 12:15 doesn't work for you. When Peter knocks on the door, some superstitious men inside thinks it must be "the angel of Peter" knocking. It would seem they are afraid there is some kind of spectre or ghost outside, trying to get in. Peter is obviously not an angel, but the men mistakenly thinks it is some kind of supernatural being. Therefore they use the word ἄγγελος (angelos) but not even in the meaning of an "angel from God"! What you need is an example of an actual heavenly angel being referred to as "man" or "young man" (with or without white/dazzling robe). Preferably in Mark or Luke/Acts, and not these verses we are discussing! Best would be Mark, since he is most at odds with your harmonization attempt.

Once again you make this claim: "Mark and Luke did not write to Jews and their readers were not going to draw from the same knowledge of these descriptions." Yet, I have shown you before many verses where Mark simply uses ἄγγελος (or variations thereof). It would seem, then, that his readers do know what an angel is, or at least Mark assumes they do. Would you like some examples of the same from Luke? I can give you many, if you like.

The idioms of Hebrew and Greek are not the same. Therefore it is not very convincing when you show that an expression in Hebrew denotes some specific thing, when we are discussing how that something is expressed in greek. Granted; angels can take on the appearance of mortal men, but remember: according to Matthew, the angel had the "appearance of lightning." Did he write that just because Ezekiel and Daniel wrote something similar, or because that's what it actually looked like?

Finally, I would really appreciate it if you could answer my question from the previous post:

haitu

So if the Lincoln analogy, that he died because he was shot and he died because of a coma, makes sense then does that mean Judas didn't die while being hanged and actually died from falling and exploding?

Or did Judas die from being hanged and then his body just exploded? If that is the case, why does the bible even care to mention his body exploding? This wouldn't be analogous to the Lincoln analogy.