McNamara

I tried to search for threads about this story, but the search won't allow "Job" since it's less than four words. Anyway, I was listening to the new Disturbed album - the first track, "Prayer," is supposed to be an allegory of the story of Job. The band says it's a story of dealing with life's hardships and moving on, but it made me think of the account of Job in the OT.

Can anyone figure this one out? God allows Satan to destroy everything Job loves, just so God can brag to Satan about how devoted Job is. It's essentially a friendly dare between two higher powers. God bets that Job will not hate him for allowing evil to be done to the innocent people Job loves, and Satan bets that Job will denounce God after enough damage has been done. God gives Satan the go-ahead to take the gloves off. Job remains faithful, and God gives everything back to Job "twofold." But Job had no way of knowing why he was being made to suffer and had no reason to suspect he'd get it all back.

Looking at it from a human perspective, it seems the writers were trying to explain evil in the world, and sending the message that everything will be okay if you have faith in God. But we all know that, in real life, God doesn't bring your loved ones back after they die for no reason.

One acronym sums up my confusion over this: WTF?

Toto

The message I got from Job is that God (or nature) is amoral and there's nothing much you can do about it.

After Job. the personalized God pretty much disappears from Biblical narratives.

Insomniac Dreams

"I read the book fo Job last night. I don't think God comes out well in it" - Virginia Woolf

On a wager with Satan, God - as if heaven and hell were just a game of baccarat in a Las Vegas casino - takes the ever-faithful Job, smites his cattle with disease, decimates his wealth, sends a dust-bowl wind that bashes in his house, and when the roof caves in, it kills all ten of his children at once, all just to prve that nothing - nothing - will make this long-suffering servant of the Lord renounce righteousness and embrace the devil. "This man was blameless and upright" says the first sentence of the book of Job, describing the man it was named for. "He feared God and shunned evil".

Every year on Yom Kippur, Jews beg forgiveness, likening themselves to clay in God's sculpturing hands, but Job it seems to me, was more like putty which was stomped upon by God's foot. You read his story and if you are gullible you may see a parable of faith, of cleaving to belief even as the rug is, almost literally, being pulled out from under your feet; but if you are sensible, you can see that it's the portrait of an unjust world, and you must derive the anti-Aesop lesson that there is no reason to be good - not because mankind is foul but because the great and good Creator who made us in His image is far fouler.

It is a common theme in the Old Testament that goodness actually seems to cost the protagonist. Afterall, Moses, for all his devotion, is never allowed to see the land of Canaan, and David, the warrior king, has too much blood on his hands to be the one to build the Holy Temple. Never mind that these two chosen ones of God are chosen for no reason that they just are: it is not that they are good and virtuous, but rather because an assortment of Divine whims - along with some previous life experience as a shepherd, the apprenticeship job for all of God's annointed ones because sympathy for ones wooly flock is meant to be good preparation for leading a group of the human variety - make it so.

Aside from the random morality presented by an Old Testament God whose creed is BECAUSE I SAID SO, THAT'S WHY, which prepares us for child-like obedience to forces we can't comprehend (ie totalitarian regimes, parents) I am hard-pushed to see what anyone can learn from these paragons of life in the time of God. The brute cruelty of the Old Testament is the engine of its own overthrow: despite 613 laws codified within its text, no actual system of crime and punishment prevails.

Nonetheless, with enough shovels, and the right interpretive skills, one can dig some real lessons out of the Old Testament - the spartan text lends itself to alternative readings, and it is in its terse and diverse chronicle of flawed, miserable humanity that this book continues to compel us over time. When Job pleads with God, the poignancy of his search for the Creator who could do this to him, his desire not to succumb to the belief that "it profits a man nothing when he tries to please God", his wish to make order and sense of a world that has wrecked him recklessly, is poetry itself, philology more than theology. "Why do you hide Your face and consider me Your enemy" Job asks of the sky above. "Will You torment a driven leaf?". The passages that comprise the book of Job show nothing of a just and good world or of a God worthy of worship by any but the most twisted of monotheists, but the portrait of this omnipotent monster who seems like an arsonist who has fled the building he has thrown kerosene and matches at, the picture of a God in hiding while imposing all this grief on Job - turning away from his responsibility, looking away from his own mess like an absentee father - provides pathos that is unsurpassed.

the lesson we are supposed to learn was that flawed behaviour will take you down. The lesson I have learnt is that any kind of behaviour may take you down and that on balance, the good suffer more than the bad.

Gurdur

McNamara:
I once did a Ironical Translation on the Book Of Job; if you're interested, I can do it again and do the remaining chapters I didn't finish last time.

McNamara

Gurdur: That sounds like fun. I'm interested.

Insomniac Dreams, that was a good post. I think that's the way I see the book, too.

Lyrics of "Prayer"

Another dream that will never come true
Just to compliment your sorrow
Another life that I've taken from you
A gift to add on to your pain and suffering
Another truth you can never believe
Has crippled you completely
All the cries you're beginning to hear
Trapped in your mind, and the sound is deafening

Let me enlighten you
This is the way I pray

[Chorus]
Living just isn't hard enough
Burn me alive, inside
Living my life's not hard enough
Take everything away

Another nightmare about to come true
Will manifest tomorrow
Another love that I've taken from you
Lost in time, on the edge of suffering
Another taste of the evil I breed
Will level you completely
Bring to life everything that you fear
Live in the dark, and the world is threatening

Let me enlighten you
This is the way i pray

[chorus]

Return to me
Leave me no one
Turn to me
Return to me
Cast aside

You've made me turn away

[chorus]

Yep, it seems like the band has it covered pretty well. One interpretation could be that, in the chorus, the "Job" character is asking for trials and tribulations. But based on the line before the final chorus, this particular Job has lost faith in an evil god, and the chorus seems sarcastic in light of that. The song is a dialogue, with god speaking in the verses and Job speaking the chorus and bridge. Basically, god is saying "ha ha. look what i can do to you" and Job is saying "bring it on, you asshole."

7thangel

What the heck? Why mention only one? There are more; Jacob and Esau, of Gideon, the tower of Babel, of Moses, Isaac and Ishmael, and most of all, Jesus Christ being crucified to save the sinners, etc.....


Romans 1
19. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Ecclesiastes 3
17. I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.
18. I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
19. For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Isaiah 45
7. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
8. Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the Lord have created it.
9. Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
10. Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
11. Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
12. I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
13. I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the Lord of hosts.

Colossians 1
16. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Does not the Bible says it very clear? Paul is even more bold:

Romans 9:
17. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20. Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22. What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23. And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

So tell me, Did God lacked demonstration that you should stop complaining?

McNamara

Exsqueeze me, a baking powder, but this thread is about the Book of Job. Or you can discuss the Disturbed song if you want, same difference.

I'm not sure what you hoped to accomplish with all those Bible verses. Would it be accurate to paraphrase your message like this?

"Stop complaining about the bad things God does to us, mere humans, because he's God and can do anything he wants with us. He created us and we're his to play with, he made the rules and can break them, and we have no right to complain or wonder about that."

Jamie_L

Whether or not that was 7thangel's intent, that's certainly a common Christian response to a number of arguments. One might call it, "Creation makes right." Essentially, God made us, so he can do whatever he wants to us. An extension of this is the "no one is worthy of life" response, which says that we are all undeserving, wretched, inferior beings, and even the most torturous torture is too good for us, so we should consider ourselves lucky, shut our whining, and fall in line so that we might some day receive the afterlife blessings that we don't deserve.

It's a twisted kind of logic, I think. Kind of like the "I brought him into this world, so I can take him out" child abuse defense.

Jamie

McNamara

If this god really existed, and I knew about him, I'd be torn between following him to save myself from hell or following my conscience. It's kind of like having to decide between the old "go to war or go to jail" ultimatum, but in this case war means supporting a supremely evil being and jail means eternal torture.

While twisted, the "creation makes right" argument is followed by many christians. Fred Phelps' website makes it clear that he recognizes god's nasty, vengeful, hateful, violent nature. And he embraces it, because (duh) we're talking about god! Do as he says, not as he does.

seebs

There's a lot of interesting questions to be had about how to best understand this story, and what we can learn from it about the people who write these kinds of things.

I think I accept the basic premise that this was a play written by earlier philosophers, and adapted a bit to contain the official Jewish answer, which is "do you know better than God? No."

There's another answer I've seen toyed with. Imagine, if you will, that Hell is real. Would you be willing to suffer greatly, to save someone from it? It certainly seems like this would be moral. Would you be willing to do so without knowing the details? You might complain, but surely it would remain a noble thing. Would you be willing to cause someone a great deal of temporary suffering, in order to save a different person from Hell? This is a harder question, but certainly many ethical schools would argue that it would be moral.

So, one question might be "is there a reasonable expectation that there would be a net decrease of suffering elsewhere that could justify this".

I don't know; I certainly wouldn't even be sure how to go about finding out. Certainly, it's easy to justify if no one actually suffers (say, if the story is fictional) and we find any benefits to it at all.

One thought experiment; imagine that the whole thing was put on to plant the first seeds of doubt in Satan's mind. Would that be worth it, should those seeds bear fruit? Within the traditional cosmology, it seems likely that it would.

That said, I think the whole thing is a half-edited morality play.