Toto

digression on Pete's theories split off

bacht

Well the neo-Pythagoreans were ascetics. The dualistic spirit-body split seems to be the justification for such behaviour. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neopythagoreanism

Stephan's point about maintaining ritual purity might apply in groups having a strong priestly tradition.

Then there was the ritual castration of priests in the goddess cults. And eunuchs were a feature of Near Eastern culture for centuries.

I like Solo's point about seeking transcendence, this also covers other behaviours like pillar-sitting, voluntary poverty, vows of silence or drug-taking.

stephan huller

I don't believe there is any evidence to suggest the existence of Christian sects that DIDN'T have priests or a priestly class.

We should be careful when employing the Patristic accounts of the 'heresies.' After all they wanted to make their enemies look as disorganized, unsophisticated and unreliable a tradition about the 'truth of Christianity' as possible.

All Christian traditions had priests. All early Christian traditions developed from the tradition of Moses and the prophets (whether that be Jewish or Samaritan is often a matter of debate).

The REAL question in my mind is whether ritual castration was always a part of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven. I suspect it was. That's why we keep reading about Alexandrian Christian eunuchs and cross dressers. They were all trying to get back to the original state of Adam. It is certainly why Origen was called 'Adamantius.'

Some background:

"First of all, in the six days he created the different kinds of passions, and the ideas, but now, in addition to them, he is creating the species. On which account Moses says, "And besides he made..." and that what had been previously created were genera is plain from what he says, "Let the earth bring forth living souls," not according to species but according to genus. And this is found to be the course taken by God in all cases; for before making the species he completes the genera, as he did in the case of man: for having first modelled the generic man, in whom they say that the male and female sexes are contained, he afterwards created the specific man Adam." [Philo, Allegorical Interpretation II.4.12 - 13]

Jewish Encyclopedia Entry 'Androgynos (Hermaphrodite)' - "Rabbinical literature knows both the mythical and the real hermaphrodite: the former in the Haggadah, the latter in the Halakah. The notion of bisexuality must have been derived from Hellenic sources, as the Greek form of the word proves. The other form, "hermaphrodite," never occurs in rabbinical writings. The principle of the sexual generation of the world is not of Greek origin: its phallic character pointing to India as its birthplace. Plato, who shows much more intimate acquaintance with the Orient than is supposed, speaks in his "Symposion" (190 B) of three generations: the masculine, the feminine, and the androgynous, which had been created by "sun, earth, and moon respectively."

In the Haggadah.

Transmitted and developed through dualistic Gnosticism in the East, the notion of an androgynous creation was adopted by the Haggadists in order to reconcile the apparently conflicting statements of the Bible. In Gen. ii. 7 and 18 et seq., the separate creations of man and of woman are described, while in chap. i. 27, "God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them," their creation is described as coincident. In connection with the latter verse the Midrash states (Gen. R. viii.): "Jeremiah, son of Eleazar, says: God created Adam androgynous, but Samuel, son of Naḥman, says, He created him 'double-faced,' then cutting him in twain and forming two backs, one to the one and the other to the second" (see Bacher, "Ag. Pal. Amor." i. 547, iii. 585). The same statement is given in Moses ha-Darshan's Bereshit Rabbati ("Pugio Fidei," p. 446, Paris, 1651). The difference in the interpretation is that, according to Jeremiah's opinion, Adam had both sexes, and was thus a real hermaphrodite in the old mythical sense, identical with that conception of Hermes in which he is understood to be the "logos alethinos," the son of Maya, the bisexual primeval man of the East. The Greek Hermaphroditus —represented by statues and on old gems, in which representations, however, bisexuality is scarcely indicated—has remained strange to the East and totally unknown to the Jews. In all the parallel passages in the Talmud, the opinion of Samuel b. Naḥman alone prevails, for we find regularly Adam (bifrons, double-fronted), as, for example: 'Er. 18a, Ber. 61a, etc. (Jastrow, "Dict." s.v., p. 304, 1).

The opinion expressed by Jeremiah is, however, very old and wide-spread, for we find the fathers of the Christian Church at pains to refute this "Jewish fable"; Augustine writes against it in his commentary on Genesis, ad loc. ch. 22. Strabos,agreeing with Augustine, declares this opinion to be one of the "damnatæ Judæorum fabulæ." Others revive the question, and Sixtus Senensis in his "Bibliotheca Sacra" devotes to it a special chapter (ed. Colon. 1586, fol. 344, 345). An alchemic interpretation has been given to "Adam androgynus," by Guil. Menens, "Aurei Velleris libri tres, Theatrum chemicum," vol. v., p. 275, Argent., 1660.

In the Halakah.

In the halakic writings only "Androgynos" is used, never "duoprosopin" (bifrons), and always in the physiological sense of "bisexual." In the Mishnah Bikkurim, the whole of section iv. is devoted to the minute description of the legal position and abnormities of the Androgynos. In some particulars he is to be treated as a man, in others as a woman, as he partakes of both natures; not so the "ṭum-ṭum," an individual whose sex can not be determined. This Androgynos is a common figure in classical tradition. Pliny mentions him ("Historia Naturalis," vii. 34), and Gellius ("Noctes Atticæ," ix. 4, 16). Special attention was paid to the Androgynos in the old writers on physiognomy. Compare "Scriptores Physiognomonici Græci et Latini," ed. Foerster, Leipsic, 1893, under "Androgynos," in Index Græcus (ii. 368). For the further legal treatment of the Androgynos in Hebrew law, see Isaac Lampronti in his "Paḥad Yiẓḥaḳ," s.v., and Löw, "Lebensalter." M. Ga."

The same kind of references are made in the earliest Alexandrian gospels (the Gospel of the Egyptians,' the Gospel of the Hebrews and the Apostolikon. The reports about the Marcionites and earliest Alexandria always reference a castrated priesthood. The surviving Orthodox vestments for the Orthodox priesthood has been argued to derive from the eunuch priests of Artemis. The Copts were always recognized for their 'expertise' in matters related to castration (female castration is still practiced in Coptic society). There is evidence that the Roman Catholic Church never lost its original interest in this rite.

IMO half the reason Roman Catholic priests have such difficulties with celibacy is that it is maintained without the accompanying rite which was banned by successive Roman administrations but especially in the Antonine period.

bacht

thanks Stephan

Clivedurdle

I thought priests were the heresies - Paul, neither male nor female etc, Hebrews we have one High Priest (ie not x thousand..)

mountainman

Celebacy is a specific form of asceticism.


The Buddhist idea of asceticism is no different from the Greek idea. Both concepts were a "full series of precepts" in sharp contradistinction over and against the same parallel precepts found in the new testament, which promotes "partial asceticism". I have explicitly defined this in another thread. What I mean by the full form of celebacy is that practiced by the Buddhist and that practiced by the Graeco-Romans. See Pausanius's decription of the Essenes - the temple assistants at the Temple of Diani in Ephesus. See also other descriptions of the "therapeutae of asclepius" and read "The Life of Apollonius".

Ashoka (and even Mani/Shapur) saw to it that Buddhism and many derivatives were well represented in celebate sects and Apollonius of Tyana and other Greek philosoper/sages/enlightened souls (eg: Ammonias Saccas and Plotinus) were also running around and contributing to the wealth of Greek literature, with which the new testament obviously competed for a foothold.

The partial nature of Christian 'celibacy' is alluded to in the new testament canon and amplified in the new testament gnostic gospels and acts as Jesus and the Twelve hang out with the publicans and consort with the ladies after hours. Precisely where did Jesus kiss Mary many times for example, is a relevant question ....

The Gospel of Philip: Exactly where did Jesus often kiss Mary?

Exactly where Jesus often kissed Mary Magdalene is emminently questionable. The coptic text of the source document known as the Gospel of Philip is reported to be damaged at that precise place. Poetically, the translators have often opted for "her mouth". Other more conservative alternatives mooted have been .... On her forehead on her cheek on her lips This list is of course not comprehensive. Do we have an image of the coptic page at that precise spot? I for one would love to know exactly where Jesus often kissed Mary. Here are some alternative translations of the passage in question: (1.1) English Translation by Wesley W. Isenberg = And the companion of the [...] Mary Magdalene. [...] loved her more than all the disciples, and used to kiss her often on her mouth. (1.2) English Translated by Anton Teplyy and Dr.Mikhail Nikolenko (2002) = The Lord loved her more than He loved all other disciples and often kissed her on her mouth. (1.3) English Translation and Notes by Paterson Brown = The [Lord loved] Mariam more than [all the (other)] Disciples, [and he] kissed her often on her [mouth].

ApostateAbe

Given that Christianity was founded by Jews, has always encouraged adherence to Jewish laws, and has incorporated Jewish scriptures into its canon, the assumption that Christianity is a Jewish sect isn't just likely. It is a no-brainer.

"Yeah, 'no-brainer' as in it takes no brains to believe it!"

:censored2:

Iskander

You seem to understand the OP; I envy you

Toto

Why would this not be related to the Holy_kiss?

It seems to have little to do with celibacy in any case.

mountainman

The Gnostic accounts seem to promoted the unusual idea of men and women kissing. The same cant be said of this Holy_kiss?