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Veteran Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: AZ, u.s.a.
Posts: 1,202
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He's trying to shift the burden; ask him what "real proof" there is for a global flood, extended day or talking animals. Ask him what "real proof" is. Ask him if "magic/miracles" can be used to "rebut" any evidence you present.
Present him with Lev 11:
Quote:
"13 " 'These are the birds you are to detest and not eat because they are detestable: the eagle, the vulture, the black vulture, 14 the red kite, any kind of black kite, 15 any kind of raven, 16 the horned owl, the screech owl, the gull, any kind of hawk, 17 the little owl, the cormorant, the great owl, 18 the white owl, the desert owl, the osprey, 19 the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat.
20 " 'All flying insects that walk on all fours are to be detestable to you. 21 There are, however, some winged creatures that walk on all fours that you may eat: those that have jointed legs for hopping on the ground. 22 Of these you may eat any kind of locust, katydid, cricket or grasshopper. 23 But all other winged creatures that have four legs you are to detest."
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1) Bat's are not birds (or foul, for KJV) -- this is undeniable
2) Locusts, katydids, crickets or grasshoppers do not "walk on all fours" -- they have six legs, which is undeniable and not merely "translation error"
As before, your most solid bet will probably be with the contradictions; use the Bible to disprove the Bible.
Present him with Dan Barker's Easter Challenge.
Quote:
Barker's second line of evidence is the numerous "glaring contradictions" (Ibid., p. 368) in the New Testament resurrection accounts. In his article, "Leave No Stone Unturned" (Ibid., p. 178-184), Barker makes the following statement (p. 178):
I have an Easter challenge for Christians. My challenge is simply this: tell me what happened on Easter. I am not asking for proof. My straightforward request is merely that Christians tell me exactly what happened on the day that their most important doctrine was born.
According to Barker, historically reliable documents should not contain contradictions. However, he thinks there are several, non-trivial discrepancies in the gospels. Was the tomb open when the women arrived? Did the women tell what happened? Where did Jesus first appear to the disciples? Where did the ascension take place? Barker thinks there is no way these stories can be reconciled without omitting "one single biblical detail" (Ibid., p. 179). More importantly, Barker implies that reliable historical documents should be inerrant.
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Present him with one of my personal favorites, David's Census; I shall let blt to go recount:
Quote:
(To save bandwidth, the three accounts of this event are at 2 Samuel 24:1-25, 1 Chronicles 21:1-28 and 1 Chronicles 27:24. Please read at your leisure)
Having read such, I have a few questions. Most are multiple-choice, to make it easy. (“A�= 2 Sam., “B�= 1 Chron. 21 and “C�=1 Chron. 27)
1. When did God get angry?
A. Before the census
B. Because of the census
C. Because of the census
2. Who incited David to take the Census?
A. God
B. Satan
C. Nobody.
3. What human mandated the census?
A. David
B. David
C. Joab.
4. Who protested against the census?
A. Joab and his captains.
B. Joab.
C. Nobody, Joab did the census.
5. What was wrong with taking a census?
A. Nothing, God mandated it in Numbers 26:2
B. Nothing, God required it for taxes in Exodus 30:12
C. Nothing, They just did one in the preceding 23 verses!
6. How long did it take to do the census?
A. Nine months, 20 days.
B. Not recorded
C. Didn’t complete the census
7. Who all was counted?
A. All tribes
B. All tribes except Levi and Benjamin
C. Didn’t complete the census.
8. What was the number of the census?
A. 1.3 Million
B. 1.57 Million (with LESS tribes counted!)
C. Number was deliberately not recorded.
9. What stopped the census?
A. Done counting
B. Done counting
C. Wrath of God, census not completed.
10. Who took the blame for doing the census?
A. David
B. David
C. Not recorded, but apparently Joab.
11. What is the name of the Jebusite where the angel stopped?
A. Araunah
B. Ornan
C. Umm…What Jebusite?
12. What did the Jebusite do when he saw the Angel of Death?
A. Doesn’t say the Jebusite saw the Angel.
B. Just kept working, just kept working…
C. Excuse me? Jebusite? I do not see a Jebusite?
13. What did David buy from the Jebusite?
A. The Threshing floor and the oxen.
B. “the place�
C. Are you crazy? THERE IS NO JEBUSITE!
14. How much did David pay the Jebusite?
A. 50 shekels of silver
B. 600 shekels of gold
C. @#*&! There is no Jebusite!
And Now for the Essay portion of our quiz. In your apologetic, discuss the theological implications of God getting so angry He desires to kill 70,000 people, but His nature of Justice mandates someone has to sin first. Also discuss the punishment of David’s sin being 70,000 OTHER people have to die. Also discuss Satan’s limitation of “tempting� others unless God allows it. Or (in the alternative) discuss the ramifications of Satan and God working together to allow God to kill 70,000 people for David’s sin.
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And all this is even excluding the multiple creation stories, the phony or dubious Davidic lineages for Jesus and the non-existent Roman census, and on and on. But still, if you don't know what standard of proof he will accept or whether it can be wisked away through the invocation of magic/miracles, your only left carrying his burden.
[edit --
Quote:
Actually, I have just re-read Cujo's post, and I have decided to immediately withdraw my offer to discuss this because I can see that he has no only already made up his mind, but is also using very well know and very old YEC tactics and I'm not going to let him play me for a sucker...
he will, no doubt, immediately declare himself the victor.
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Oh sure, and after I go through all the trouble to type up the above!  ]
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02-04-2005, 11:35 PM
