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skepticalbip · 07-07-2008, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr lazer blast

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

There's nothing to investigate. Fatima was mass hysteria. A bunch of idiots said they saw the sun dance around, but in point of fact, it didn't actually "dance around." It is eminently verifiable that the sun did not dance around because the earth is still intact (which it would not be if it had been shaken violently in such a manner), and nobody else saw it outside of a few hysterical peasants all hepped up on religious fanatacism. Their say so does not equal evidence. The sun did not actually move, no matter what they think they saw.

did you read the whole article?

Quote:

It has been alleged that the fact that an unspecified "miracle" had been predicted, the abrupt beginning and end of the alleged miracle of the sun, the varied nature of the observers as including both skeptics and believers alike, the sheer numbers of people present, and the lack of any known scientific causative factor, all reasonably rule out the theory of a mass hallucination.[26] That the activity of the sun was reported as visible by those up to 18 kilometers away, also precludes the theory of a collective hallucination or mass hysteria.[26]

And yet not a single observatory (you know, people who study things like the sun) in the world noticed or no one in any other country noticed. What needs to be explained is why, if the sun was actually dancing around, the only people to notice it were the ones in the area who were aware of religious "prediction". The apparent answer is that religious belief can play hell with one's perception and objectivity - which has been amply demonstrated many times before (and since).

dr lazer blast · 07-07-2008, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

The article is simply incorrect and whiny. It tries to argue by nothing but baseless assertion that mass hysteria, etc. should be ruled out, but nothing rules out mass hysteria, mass hallucination, suggestion, simple lying or (most probably) a combination of all those factors. What we know for sure is that the sun didn't move. The phenomenon exists only of people claiming they saw something. We can definitively prove that what they claimed to have seen didn't happen, therefore all that needs to be explained is why they said it, and for that there is no shortage of explanations. The article claims a lack of "any known scientific causative factor." A "causative factor" for WHAT? There certainly are scientific explanations for why people would laim they saw the sun move, or even believe it. None of those explanations have been disproven and all are preferable to magic. Even the "miraculous" explanation amounts to nothing more than a claim that God made people hallucinate.

the article is not incorrect. Considering the fact that it was predicted, and the number of people that witnessed the event along with a couple of other factors, all rule out mass hysteria. How can you definitively prove that it didn't happen?, thats what I'd like to know. Also the shroud of turnin has not been definitively proven to be a fake so I don't know where that came from either, furthermore it is not only the shroud of turnin but other alleged miracles as well match the blood type.

ZouPrime · 07-07-2008, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr lazer blast

the article is not incorrect. Considering the fact that it was predicted, and the number of people that witnessed the event along with a couple of other factors, all rule out mass hysteria. How can you definitively prove that it didn't happen?, thats what I'd like to know.

Well, significant perturbations in our climate, tides, seasons etc. have not been observed.

The sun moving at massive speed in space for a few seconds would have drastic and unambiguous consequence for ou planet and the life that inhabit it. That none of these consequences happened is strong indication that the sun did not "dance".

barbos · 07-07-2008, 09:43 AM

BTW, about dancing sun, were there people which did not see it ?
If there were only one person (near that place) who did not see it then it would prove beyond any doubt that it was in fact mass hysteria.

Diogenes the Cynic · 07-07-2008, 09:48 AM

Another note on Fatima -- I'm reminded of a teacher I once had who'd grown up in Cologne, Germany and fled to America during WWII. Cologne has a giant cathedral. This teacher sometimes reminisced about a prank that would sometimes be played by the children of Cologne in the days before the war. A few kids would stand at the bottom of the cathedral, pointing up at the spires and exclaiming that they could see a man up there getting ready to jump. Passers by would peer up with them and with enough encouragemnet, they would begin to insist that they could see the man too. Eventually, they could draw a whole crowd of people gazing up at the spires and shouting to the imaginary jumper not to jump. The kids would then slip away.

People are stupid and easily suggestible. People who are surrounded by other people who claim they can see something will start to believe they can see it to. That's how it works.

Reason · 07-07-2008, 09:50 AM

ANy cailms of "miracle" by supernatural means are automatically bunk. Eyewitnesses unorroborated by testable evidence are almost worthless.

The odds are overwhelming that so-called "miracles" such as Fatima were atmospheric phenomena, and nothing more. Hell, there are still places in the world where an eclipse is considered supernatural.

barbos · 07-07-2008, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barbos

BTW, about dancing sun, were there people which did not see it ?
If there were only one person (near that place) who did not see it then it would prove beyond any doubt that it was in fact mass hysteria.

I see wiki ruled out mass hysteria by the fact it was "independently" observed, OK

Diogenes the Cynic · 07-07-2008, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr lazer blast

the article is not incorrect. Considering the fact that it was predicted, and the number of people that witnessed the event along with a couple of other factors, all rule out mass hysteria.

What was actually predicted? What rukes out mass hysteria, lying or suiggestion?
[qupote]How can you definitively prove that it didn't happen?, thats what I'd like to know.[/quote]
Because the earth is still here and because no one else in the world observed the sun bouncing around.

Quote:

Also the shroud of turnin has not been definitively proven to be a fake so I don't know where that came from either, furthermore it is not only the shroud of turnin but other alleged miracles as well match the blood type.

The Shroud was carbon dated to the 14th Century in the 80's.

Reason · 07-07-2008, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr lazer blast

Considering the fact that it was predicted, and the number of people that witnessed the event along with a couple of other factors, all rule out mass hysteria. How can you definitively prove that it didn't happen?, thats what I'd like to know. Also the shroud of turnin has not been definitively proven to be a fake so I don't know where that came from either, furthermore it is not only the shroud of turnin but other alleged miracles as well match the blood type.

Come on, DLB, you know better than that. The burden of proof is on the claimant.

Why don't you prove that Zeus did not live on mount Olympus? :Cheeky:

barbos · 07-07-2008, 10:13 AM

Well, it was somewhat predicted because people (according to wiki) gathered at specific time to observe it. Prediction does not seem include description of what would happen, just a time. "Prediction" sits very well with a mass hysteria theory.

The fact that it was observed "independently" does not rule out mass hysteria completely simply because people were expecting something to happen.

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07-07-2008, 09:43 AM	#14
barbos Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 8,047	BTW, about dancing sun, were there people which did not see it ? If there were only one person (near that place) who did not see it then it would prove beyond any doubt that it was in fact mass hysteria.

07-07-2008, 09:48 AM	#15
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	Another note on Fatima -- I'm reminded of a teacher I once had who'd grown up in Cologne, Germany and fled to America during WWII. Cologne has a giant cathedral. This teacher sometimes reminisced about a prank that would sometimes be played by the children of Cologne in the days before the war. A few kids would stand at the bottom of the cathedral, pointing up at the spires and exclaiming that they could see a man up there getting ready to jump. Passers by would peer up with them and with enough encouragemnet, they would begin to insist that they could see the man too. Eventually, they could draw a whole crowd of people gazing up at the spires and shouting to the imaginary jumper not to jump. The kids would then slip away. People are stupid and easily suggestible. People who are surrounded by other people who claim they can see something will start to believe they can see it to. That's how it works.

07-07-2008, 09:50 AM	#16
Reason Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Southwest USA Posts: 879	ANy cailms of "miracle" by supernatural means are automatically bunk. Eyewitnesses unorroborated by testable evidence are almost worthless. The odds are overwhelming that so-called "miracles" such as Fatima were atmospheric phenomena, and nothing more. Hell, there are still places in the world where an eclipse is considered supernatural.

07-07-2008, 10:13 AM	#20
barbos Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 8,047	Well, it was somewhat predicted because people (according to wiki) gathered at specific time to observe it. Prediction does not seem include description of what would happen, just a time. "Prediction" sits very well with a mass hysteria theory. The fact that it was observed "independently" does not rule out mass hysteria completely simply because people were expecting something to happen.

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