noble savage

This is probably based on Tertullian (c. 150-230), Against Marcion IV 9: “But there is historical proof that at this very time a census had been taken in Judæa by Sentius Saturninus, which might have satisfied their inquiry respecting the family and descent of Christ.”

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/03124.htm

Note that Sentius Saturninus was governor of Syria from 9 or 8 to 6 BCE, but is not the same person as Cyrenius (Quirinius), who is named in Luke 2.2.

NS

purple_kathryn

and if you read Lamb (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Christopher Moore you can find out what happened before then :Cheeky:

Fortuna

OK, but that cannot be what GaryP's "poster on another site" is referring to.
I say that because GaryP's poster said ;

But if we follow the traditional dates for the birth of Jesus, he would have been an infant at that time. So the "noted healer" part doesn't fit. Unless of course, the traditional is way off or baby Jesus was healing from his crib.

fromdownunder

The nearest thing I can think of is that this is a garbled reference to Josephus - a kind of Chinese whisper version.

Norm

fta

I've heard Xians claim that baby Jesus was recorded in the Census described in the Luke Gospel (dealt with in Richard Carrier's article here).

The fact that any data that might have been recorded in the census is long-lost doesn't seem to worry them.

premjan

Wasn't the reason for Joseph's journey to Bethlehem, to participate in the census?

Lucretius

That is the reason given in the NT
HOWEVER while there was a census of Judaea there was no requirement for people to "return to their ancestral home" in ANY example of Roman census taking.
The census was primarily a list for taxation purposes and as such would want to know who "Joseph" was ,if he owned property and how much he earned, all of these would be relevant to where he was currently living and there was no reason for him to travel "back home" to give this information.
In addition just think of the chaos any such idea would cause .people would be criss crossing the entire Empire just to give the tax man his information.
The whole idea of having to return to Bethlehem is such bureaucratic nonsense that the Romans just wouldn't have done as it served no useful purpose at all.

-Jay-

Better yet, GLuke has the Joseph family trudging off to Bethlehem for the census. GMatt appears to have them living there all along.

The Nativity narratives in GMatt and GLuke differ in so many details that the casual reader might wonder if they're even intended to recount the same set of events.

It has often been said that it is impossible to reconcile the two Nativity accounts without inventing a lot of bridging details and performing textual gymnastics of an Olympic caliber.

regards,

NinJay

Ben C Smith

Here is the Tertullian passage:

Ea omnia super Christo Pilatus, et ipse iam pro sua conscientia Christianus, Caesari tunc Tiberio nuntiavit.

All these things concerning Christ Pilate, even himself already a Christian in his own conscience, announced to Tiberius, who was then Caesar.

But I suspect the claim might be a conflation of two passages from Justin Martyr. First, Apology 1.34.2:

Κωμη δε τις εστιν εν τη χωρα Ιουδαιων απεχουσα σταδιους τριακοντα πεντε Ιεροσολυμων, εν η εγεννηθη Ιησους Χριστος, ως και μαθειν δυνασθε εκ των απογραφων των γενομενων επι Κυρηνιου, του υμετερου εν Ιουδαια πρωτου γενομενου επιτροπου.

And there is a certain village in the country of the Jews, at a distance of thirty-five stades from Jerusalem, in which was born Jesus Christ, as you can learn from the census lists made in the time of Cyrenius, who was your first governor in Judea.

Second, Apology 1.48.1-3:

Οτι δε και θεραπευσειν πασας νοσους και νεκρους ανεγερειν ο ημετερος Χριστος προεφητευθη, ακουσατε των λελεγμενων· εστι δε ταυτα· Τη παρουσια αυτου αλειται χωλος ως ελαφος, και τρανη εσται γλωσσα μογιλαλων· τυφλοι αναβλεψουσι και λεπροι καθαρισθησονται και νεκροι αναστησονται και περιπατησουσιν. οτι δε ταυτα εποιησεν εκ των επι ∏οντιου ∏ιλατου γενομενων ακτων μαθειν δυνασθε.

But, that it was also prophesied that our Christ would heal all diseases and raise dead people, listen to the things that have been said. These things are: At his advent a lame man shall leap like a deer, and the tongue of the stammerer shall be clear; blind men shall see and lepers shall be cleansed and dead men shall resurrect and walk around. And that he did these things you can learn from the Acts made in the time of Pontius Pilate.

The first passage gives us a census apparently recording the birth of Jesus. The second gives us official recognition of his healing ability. Needless to say, both of these testimonia are quite dubious.

Ben.

GaryP

wow thanks everyone:

She just responded with the Josepheus description of JC Never had an answer for the "census" assertion.