Iskander

oldman,
This is also my opinion.


Christian history is the natural growth of the beliefs of ordinary real people attached to one leader, Jesus the son of Mary and Joseph as they are known to us, and one must admire and thank the church for honestly preserving the evidence of this evolutionary growth from the mustard seed.

lpetrich

That would be Apollonius of Tyana, I guess.

My favorite criterion is Lord Raglan's Hero Pattern, something that I've discussed in several earlier threads.

Jesus Christ comes out 18 1/2 or thereabouts, up there with the likes of Romulus and King Arthur. As to Romulus, he also was described as the son of a god and a virgin.

The Buddha is also very high scoring, about 13.

However, it's very hard to find someone well-documented who scores more than about 10, especially in modern times. Tsar Nicholas II scores about 12, but that's about it. I've scored the likes of Napoleon (8), Abe Lincoln (6), Charles Darwin (5), Winston Churchill (5), Adolf Hitler (4), and JFK (7). If one treats JFK's death as mystery, his score goes up to 8.

To show how Lord Raglan's scoring works, I'll score George Washington, US Revolutionary War leader and first President.

1. Hero's mother is a royal virgin;
Mary Ball had a rather undistinguished ancestry. However, George was her first child. Score: 1/2

2. His father is a king, and
Augustine Washington was a gentleman farmer. Score: 1/2

3. Often a near relative of his mother, but
No. Score: 0

4. The circumstances of his conception are unusual, and
No evidence of that. Score: 0

5. He is also reputed to be the son of a god.
Not even the likes of hagiographer Parson Weems had claimed that. Score: 0

6. At birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or his maternal grand father to kill him, but
No evidence of that. Score: 0

7. he is spirited away, and
His parents stayed put with him in their Virginia estate. Score: 0

8. Reared by foster parents in a far country.
He was raised by his biological parents. Score: 0

9. We are told nothing of his childhood, but
Aside from Weemsian mythology, little bit is know about that, mostly his teen years. He was very good at mathematics and he learned a bit of surveying, but he never learned any foreign language. Score: 0

10. On reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future Kingdom.
He inhabits his "kingdom" all his life. Score: 0

11. After a victory over the king and/or a giant, dragon, or wild beast,
He led the Continental Army in its successful fight against the British in the American Revolutionary War. Score: 1

12. He marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor and
Martha Dandridge was the daughter of a gentleman farmer. Score: 1/2

13. And becomes king.
He gets elected President. Score: 1

14. For a time he reigns uneventfully and
Suppressing the Whisky Rebellion was the biggest event in it. Score: 1/2

15. Prescribes laws, but
He improved relations with Britain, and he stated his thoughts on governing in his Farewell Address. Score: 1

16. Later he loses favor with the gods and/or his subjects, and
Just the opposite. He reluctantly ran for a second term and he refused to run for a third one. Score: 0

17. Is driven from the throne and city, after which
He retired, but his successor got him to help plan for a possible war with France. Score: 0

18. He meets with a mysterious death,
He died of some illness. Score: 0

19. Often at the top of a hill,
In his home. Score: 0

20. His children, if any do not succeed him.
He was childless and likely sterile as a result of smallpox. Score: 1

21. His body is not buried, but nevertheless
He was buried in his Mount Vernon estate. Score: 0

22. He has one or more holy sepulchres.
Score: 0

Overall score: 6

Note that George Washington's biography lacked some of the events that are typical of legendary heroes. He had 100% human ancestry, and King George II did not try to get him killed as a baby because of all the trouble he would cause for his grandson, King George III. He also did not get repudiated, and he died a rather ordinary death in his home.

Toto

The church did not preserve the evidence, honestly or not (I suspect honesty was not involved.) The record shows that the church manufactured the "evidence."

Horatio Parker

Apollonius of Tyana not Tyre, sorry. My mistake.

I thought you were after figures with miraculous fictions attached to them soon after their passing.

I believe many if not all of the old gods were anthropomorphized forces of nature eg Hercules was a sun god. Is that not at least similar?

Maybe a list would help:

1. Originated as a spirit
2. Morphed into a real man recently on earth
3. Voluminous contradictory miraculous accounts

Robin Hood is another. IIRC in The Messiah Myth: The Near Eastern Roots of Jesus and David (or via: amazon.co.uk), Thompson discusses a study of Robin Hood(wish I could remember more). IIRC the legend has literally hundreds of variations. Now, RH may not originated as a spirit, but is sounds as if the inconsistency is there.

Horatio Parker

I think there are better odds that Socrates was historical.

The writings about him were contemporary accounts by people who claimed to know him. We don't have anything comparable about HJ.

archibald

Yes, I should axe that one straight away. The issue there seems to be similar, in some ways, to Alexander the Great (and many others probably). Existence: not really in doubt. Accurate biography: difficult to pin down.

Which is a different kettle of fish, and not really on a par with Jesus, who may not have existed at all in the first place.

archibald

No prob. You could have got away with it, since I myself was mixed up and read it as 'Tyana' in any case. Lol.

Well, in a way, yes, I am (or I was. It seems to have opened up a bit, which feels fine, a bit like a brainstorming session).

And Apollonius of Tyana doesn't seem to have that many?

Well yes, these things are all related varieties of something, so that it would be possible to include what I now see you are suggesting when you say 'spirit'.

But I think I might need to restrict my comparisons to 'figures'. That is to say, one underlying question (Doherty's, I suppose) is whether Jesus was an 'anthropomorphic' figure who existed on earth or an 'anthropomorphic' figure who didn't exist on earth (who was 'spiritual' perhaps).

Robin Hood would be a good candidate, except that, as far as I know, his story grew over a longer period and it is located (I think) even in the earliest accounts in the 'dim and distant'. I'm not sure how long 'ago' it was supposed to have been in the first stories, but Jesus seems much closer to the writers, especially the time of 'Paul', but even Mark is only a few decades, it seems. This has always seemed unusual to me, for a 'mythical' figure.

Sheesh. One always feels one needs so many inverted commas when discussing these issues. So hard to use the right term, without giving someone else the impression that one is not including or reflecting part of their definitions.

Yes, I know some are going to say I'm making an assumption about the timing, but I'm not, really. I'm taking what seems like the most reasonable provisional position, based on the evidence. I could be wrong, but I am reasssured that I am at least in the company of a lot of academics and two very respected mythicists, Richard Carrier and Robert Price.

I am not excluding the 'dim and distant' past from being interesting and useful for comparisons, but I am looking (amongst other things) to see if there is/was anyone who would have fitted the bill, including being 'recently attested' (as in recent to the attestation, obviously). And so far, Sai Baba is the best example.

archibald

Interesting reading. Thankyou.

My only reservation, given the 'Hero' criteria, is whether it is entirely .......appropriate to measure Jesus against them, but I can see that it's not completely inappropriate either, because at the very least, the criteria can be applied and we can see how he scores.

aa5874

Sorry, in Christian history Joseph could NOT be the father of Jesus.

You must have FORGOTTEN that Joseph KNEW HER NOT until AFTER Jesus was born.

Examine Matthew 1.24-25

It was claimed also by JEWS that Jesus was the son of a soldier called PANTHERA through Adultery but the Church claimed Jesus was FATHERED by a Ghost.

Examine "Against Celsus 1
So, it was NOT established who the father of Jesus was. Perhaps it was a Ghost, God or Panthera. It was NOT Joseph because in the NT, Joseph KNEW her NOT until AFTER Jesus was born.

GakuseiDon

What is interesting is scoring the various books separately; e.g. Paul's letters; then the Gospel of Mark; then each of the other Gospels; then the Second Century literature. The Gospel of Mark gives a very low score. It shows how legends are added to the man.