Kosh

Perhaps some more scholarly sources are in need here:

If you tune in the TV tomorrow night (thursday) on the history channel,
they will be airing "The History of Christmas".

In short, explaining how the holiday was co-opted from the Roman PAGAN holiday of "Saturnalia".

Also, here's another page from the history channel:


Christmas

Remember OF, these days it's not so easy to re-write history. Damn internet!

Orthodox_Freethinker

Read the first chapter of John's Gospel:

1 ¶ THE Word was in the beginning, and that very Word was with God, and God was that Word.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 Everything came to be by his hand; and without him not even one thing that was created came to be.

4 The life was in him, and the life is the light of men.

5 ¶ And the same light shines in darkness, and the darkness does not overcome it.

6 There was a man, sent from God, whose name was John.

7 He came as a witness to testify concerning the light, so that every man might believe by means of him.

8 He was not the light, but a witness to testify concerning the light.

9 He was the true light which lighted every man who came into the world.

10 He was in the world and the world was under his hand, and yet the world knew him not.

11 He came to his own, and his own did not receive him.

12 But those who received him, to them he gave power to become sons of God, especially to those who believed in his name,

13 Those who are not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but born of God.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we saw his glory, the glory of the Father's only son, full of grace and truth.


How could the Father and the Son be co-eternal without being the same God? Are the Father, Son and Holy Spirit three distinct gods? No, that would be the heresy of tritheism. If the Son not God but a created being? No, that would be the heresy of Arianism. The only understanding that the Scripture would allow is trinitarianism.

Orthodox_Freethinker

I've already seen that program. As explained in the OP, we might as well conclude that Christmas came before the pagan holiday and not the other way around.

Orthodox_Freethinker

It's miraculous conception but there is nothing to suggest that Jesus did not develop the same as any other unborn child.

As shown in the OP, the Catholic Encyclopedia may be incorrect.

Boro Nut

All this talk makes me really mad. A long time ago, a single beautiful human being put his very life on the line for each and every one of us. How quickly we forget. With no thought for his own safety or wellbeing, and in full knowledge of what dreadful danger he faced, he so loved the little children of the world that he gladly clambered down my chimney with a ten speed racing bike. Will no one make a stand for him?

Boro Nut

Boro Nut

Steady on now. If you preclude making bald assertions simply because there is no supporting scripture you pretty much consign apologetics to the dustpan of history.

Boro Nut

Boro Nut

That would be quite a compelling argument if it didn't rely somewhat totally on the heresy of trinitarianism.

Boro Nut

newtype_alpha

That's simple: they're not coeternal. John is a gnostic gospel, which means massive parts of it are written in alegory. A literal reading of the Gospel of John contradicts remakrably the accounts of the other three synoptic gospels; therefore, either a literal reading is impossible, or the author of John was simply making things up to suit his own imagination.

Hence the other option, Arianism, which would be consistent with OT notions of the nature of the oneness of God and consistent with the three synoptic gospels and an esoteric reading of John. Thus, Jesus is a man--created by God, endowed with divine power, but 100% human all the same.

Agemegos

I might accept that Advent (the four weeks before Christmas as a special liturgical season) was co-opted or continued from Saturnalia (1-23 December). But Christmas is pretty clearly co-opted from the Nativity of Sol Invictus (25 December).

Chili

Advent is the modern version of the flood but is never a preparation for Christmas. The building of the ark is a preparation but not the flood. The Advent wreath is a preparation but not Advent itself. Advent 'takes' us and we must have a wreath that will take us across and actually identify the white candle as our very own baptism Candle that was given to us to keep and not burn or lose.

Christmas just comes without presents.