Doctor X

Toto:

Hmmmm . . . we could change that to:

Heck! Today we can convince people that water stains are manefestations of Big Daddy. Argh! Maddening how people can make themselves ignorant!

Did Paul invent the whole thing? Well . . . two things pop into mind. First, someone kept "da sayings" going enough for them to become available to two other writers. Second, if should not the Synoptics be more "Pauline?"--reflecting his influence.

--J.D.

Family Man

The whole "it would have died out if it wasn't true" argument is just plain silly. As Toto noted, other religions fill that bill just as well. Islam would have died out if Muhammed hadn't been the last prophet of God.

rlogan

That was a nice piece by Peter Kirby on the subject. The "argument from silence" in this case is pretty compelling.

Where are the throngs of people flocking annually to the tomb? I

Pretty convenient to have no body and no tomb.

SLD

The problem isn't with taking Craig's argument seriously. We shouldn't take them seriously because they are very poor arguments. As others have pointed out the same can be said about a lot of claims of ancient and modern religions. But more importantly my point is how we go about attacking these ridiculous claims and exposing their weaknesses. Craig's claim is especially weak because it's dead wrong. Roman masses heard claims of rising gods and rising from the dead humans routinely. Why in the world would they bother debunking this one? The most likely response is a "Yeah, whatever... NEXT!!" Second, the claims are made decades after the fact - so they can't be so easily debunked.

Craig argues that the apostles wouldn't make the claim if they couldn't back it up, because people in ancient Jerusalem would have just produced the body. BULLSHIT!! There's no evidence that such a claim was made in Jerusalem shortly after the crucifixion. It isn't until decades later that we have anyone alleging that Jesus rose from the dead. At best we have hints of it in Paul's writings, but the gospels are the real source of our resurrection story - in the 70's. Pauls writings are in the 50's, and Jesus is supposedly executed in the 30's - at least a 20 years difference.

Imagine if you will, someone claiming that some schmuck executed by Saddam Hussein in 1983, named Khalid (a common arab name, like Yeshua was in ancient Judea) rose from the grave three days after his execution, and as proof - there's an empty tomb in the outskirts of Basrah that you can find today. What kind of evidence is that? It's not crap. You'd want to find other witnesses to this alleged event, where's Khalid now, where's his parents, his brothers, etc.

But the problem is even more complicated in Ancient Rome without instaneous communications, no CNN Investigative Reports, no NBC Dateline, and an illiterate population that hears such claims routinely and doesn't bother about them. Don't fight Craig on his turf. Go after the assumptions that he makes from the beginning. Ancient Rome and Ancient Judea are not modern day skeptical, scientifically inclined America and as such they would not have had much interest in challenging another "he rose from the grave" claim. Once you point that out, Craig's argument falls apart. Let him argue that they wouldn't have said it if it weren't true. Sheesh. Whatever.

SLD

Toto

The only reason for taking Craig's arguments seriously is that a lot of people do take them seriously, so you have to do more than just brush them off as obviously bogus.

But Craig's mission is not to actually prove anything, but merely to establish an intellectually respectable case for people to be Christians. It's like the creationists who want to just get a place at the table, and not be laughed at as hicks.

SLD

Anyone who buys Craig or Creationism deserves to be laughed at. Most liberal/educated/intelligent Christians at least argue that it is merely a matter of faith - you just gotta believe and that there is no evidence one way or the other. I can respect that decision. I suppose their right to an extent - you can't actually prove it didn't happen, but I won't say that stranger things have happened. But it's lies like Craig's and the Creationist's that get me riled up.

SLD