Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spin · 03-22-2007, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Spin if you would just go back and read the previous posts and follow the links you will find your answer.

If you cannot present a coherent case, you should say nothing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

I posted this and gave you the reference in post #175

But if you'd read Jeremias, you'd know that he said that the day involved was in Sept/Oct 5BCE, so you rest your case, right?

spin

Johann_Kaspar · 03-23-2007, 02:39 PM

Timeline:

May-june -5 : Matthias appointed high priest
Sept-October -5 : Yom Kippur, Matthias replaced for one day
12/13 March -4 : one Matthias executed, other removed from office
13 March -4 : eclipse
Between 13 March and Pesha (time span 29-30 days): Herod's health deteriorating when it was already bad, Herod to Callirhoe and back, gathering the "principals of the Jews" to kill them, received permission to execute Antipater and did it, died 5 days later, funeral, revolt during Pesha (= 11/12 April).

All is well.

Johann_Kaspar · 03-23-2007, 02:42 PM

I have a question: when did Herodias mary Herod Antipas?

spin · 03-23-2007, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johann_Kaspar

I have a question: when did Herodias mar[r]y Herod Antipas?

Some time before Agrippa moved to Tiberias, AJ 18.6.2 (AJ 18.148), which was well before the end of Flaccus's term as legate of Syria.

spin

Larsguy47 · 03-23-2007, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johann_Kaspar

Timeline:

May-june -5 : Matthias appointed high priest
Sept-October -5 : Yom Kippur, Matthias replaced for one day
12/13 March -4 : one Matthias executed, other removed from office
13 March -4 : eclipse
Between 13 March and Pesha (time span 29-30 days): Herod's health deteriorating when it was already bad, Herod to Callirhoe and back, gathering the "principals of the Jews" to kill them, received permission to execute Antipater and did it, died 5 days later, funeral, revolt during Pesha (= 11/12 April).

All is well.

Herod's death is confirmed to be Shebat 2. If that historical reference is dismissed then any fantasy scenario will work as well as you need to. The challenge is finding a solution that incorporates the element of a national Jewish FAST, followed closely by an eclipse within a couple of days, after which Herod dies rapidly afterward. After that a 7-day mourning for Herod and then a 25-day march out to Herodium. Then after that a sedition grows against Archaleus as passover season approaches. There is no annual fast in during the month of Adar. The only annual fasts are 4th, 5th, 7th and 10th months. Herod dies in the 11th month.

Larsguy47

Larsguy47 · 03-23-2007, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Here's the question:

How much time passed between the time Matthias was appointed, AJ 17.4.2 (17.78), and the time he was dethroned AJ 17.6.4 (17.166)? How do you tell which fast and when it was?

How about an answer? Was Matthias appointed in 6BCE? When was he appointed and how do you know which fast was involved in the dream issue?

spin

There are only four annual Jewish fasts. One in the 4th, 5th, 7th and 10th month. The fast in the 10th month is on the 10th day, just 4 days before an eclipse. Herod dies in the 11th month. The 10th month fast is the most proximal to Herod's death on Shebat 2, which would have been just 18 days later.

Larsguy47

Larsguy47 · 03-23-2007, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

This is fantasy unrelated to the evidence. Look at the reference to the consuls in AJ 14.14.5 (14.389).

spin

I'm convinced. It looked up this information and then found this great discussion of this topic. Here's a section about the 37 vs 34 years:

Quote:

3.5 Josephus' Chronology
Could Josephus not have known that Herod's sons antedated their reigns? That is entirely possible because he knew very little about their reigns. He devoted only one verse in his Antiquities to the ten years of Archelaus and only two more to the first thirty years of Antipas and Philip,[26] whereas Herod's reign required thirty chapters.

Josephus only gives two Roman years during Herod's entire reign: 40 B.C. when he was named king by Rome, and 37 B.C., when he took Jerusalem and had the reigning king killed.[27] Josephus then dates events with the year of Herod's reign, as if it were obvious which of the two starting points is implied. And perhaps it should be obvious. The custom was to reckon from the death of the former king, which implies 37 B.C.; moreover, Josephus begins a book in his Antiquities with the death of the former king in 37 B.C. The conclusion that Herod's first year began in 37 B.C. is confirmed by events from Roman history: Augustus' defeat of Antony in 31 B.C. was in Herod's seventh year and the expedition of Gallus in 24 B.C. was in Herod's fourteenth year.[28]

At Herod's death, Josephus says that Herod reigned 34 years from the death of the former king, but then adds that he had reigned 37 years counting from the 40 B.C. date.[3] Why did Josephus suddenly reckon from 40 B.C. for the first time? And if Josephus had access to a detailed history of Herod, how could he be wrong about the length of Herod's reign?

As a possible answer to both questions, suppose Josephus' source said Herod reigned 37 years (consistent with his death having been in early A.D. 1). Because other records implied that Herod's successors reckoned their reigns from 4-3 B.C., he would have seen an apparent conflict because they began to reign at Herod's death. Faced with this dilemma, he might well have decided that the best solution was that Herod's 37 years must have been counted from 40 B.C. This explains both why he would have incorrectly assigned 34 years to Herod's reign as well as why he added the new reckoning from 40 B.C. in order to use the "37 years" from the original source.[29]

Thus, it is concluded that Herod died in A.D. 1 because the Dec. 29, 1 B.C. eclipse was the most likely, it explains all of the historical evidence, and it's easy to see how Josephus could have made his mistakes. This conclusion does not require that the birth of Christ also be later, but it does allow that possibility.

DEFINITELY CHECK OUT: Another discussion about Herod's death and the eclipse.

spin · 03-24-2007, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

There are only four annual Jewish fasts. One in the 4th, 5th, 7th and 10th month. The fast in the 10th month is on the 10th day, just 4 days before an eclipse. Herod dies in the 11th month. The 10th month fast is the most proximal to Herod's death on Shebat 2, which would have been just 18 days later.

The post you were responding to shows that there is no reason to connect the fast with the eclipse.

spin

spin · 03-24-2007, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

I'm convinced. It looked up this information and then found this great discussion of this topic. Here's a section about the 37 vs 34 years:...

This was pretty funny stuff. How the writer gets to the "Thus" is puzzling though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

DEFINITELY CHECK OUT: Another discussion about Herod's death and the eclipse.

We are becoming used to people twiddling numbers and never facing the fact that Quirinius carried out his apografh at the end of the reign of Archelaus. We know why he did it. We know that Herod the Great had complete administrative control within his kingdom, so no imagined property registration for the Romans would have been contemplated: they were happy to let Herod do the work for them as he was efficient and favored.

spin

DougWeller · 03-24-2007, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

Interestingly, if this were the only revision, likely evoked to add a few extra years to the ruling Caesar, Flavius, it might mean Jerusalem fell in 73 AD rather than 70 AD, which for such an important event, would be more relevant to Jesus' death in 33 CE since that would be exactly 40 years afterward.

Larsguy47

I don't understand this at all, could you please explain why it would be mre relevant?

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03-23-2007, 02:39 PM	#252
Johann_Kaspar Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: France Posts: 1,831	Timeline: May-june -5 : Matthias appointed high priest Sept-October -5 : Yom Kippur, Matthias replaced for one day 12/13 March -4 : one Matthias executed, other removed from office 13 March -4 : eclipse Between 13 March and Pesha (time span 29-30 days): Herod's health deteriorating when it was already bad, Herod to Callirhoe and back, gathering the "principals of the Jews" to kill them, received permission to execute Antipater and did it, died 5 days later, funeral, revolt during Pesha (= 11/12 April). All is well.

03-23-2007, 02:42 PM	#253
Johann_Kaspar Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: France Posts: 1,831	I have a question: when did Herodias mary Herod Antipas?

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