Freethought & Rationalism Archive

hughmcjr · 06-21-2005, 07:31 PM

Actually my belief is that The Holy Spirit is the Way to Jesus who is the Truth to get to Life which is God the Father....Trinity.

Joan of Bark · 06-21-2005, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knife

Roman Catholics claim it is, but the evidence they have for it is next to nothing and their theory (unbroken carefully kept lineage) is highly speculative.

Exactly. There were, by my count, 36 anti-popes throughout history, at least some of whom were elected by the same cardinals that elected the 'real' popes. (They also occasionally excommunicated each other, which I find hilarious).

John A. Broussard · 06-22-2005, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

Exactly. There were, by my count, 36 anti-popes throughout history, at least some of whom were elected by the same cardinals that elected the 'real' popes. (They also occasionally excommunicated each other, which I find hilarious).

Not only that, but the Church can't even get it's own lineage straight. Try to find John XX.

Joan of Bark · 06-22-2005, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John A. Broussard

Not only that, but the Church can't even get it's own lineage straight. Try to find John XX.

According to my Encyclopaedia Britannica Almanac 2003 "A confusion in the numbering of popes named John after John XIV resulted because some 11th-century historians mistakenly believed that there had been a pope named John between antipope Boniface VII and the true John XV. Therefore they mistakenly numbered the real popes John XV to XIX and John XVI to XX. These popes have since customarily been renumbered XV to XIX, but John XXI and John XXII continue to bear numbers that they themselves formally adopted on the assumption that there had indeed been 20 Johns before them."

So much for papal infallibility.

vsop44 · 06-22-2005, 07:02 AM

One thing that has puzzled me in the history of the catholic church is their choice of the first pope PETER . It is well known that when Jesus said " thou art Peter and upon this rock i will build my church " Jesus was making a pun !!
Isn't he the guy who denied Jesus 3 times before the rooster sang !!!

Now correct me if I am wrong but this guy , when confronted about his connection with Jesus , says that he he has never seen the guy before !!!
and the next thing we know , they make him the first leader of the church , talk about standing by your friends in their hour of need .
As far as I am concerned the first leader of the catholic church was a sleazy scumbag and things went down from there !!

John A. Broussard · 06-22-2005, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

According to my Encyclopaedia Britannica Almanac 2003 "A confusion in the numbering of popes named John after John XIV resulted because some 11th-century historians mistakenly believed that there had been a pope named John between antipope Boniface VII and the true John XV. Therefore they mistakenly numbered the real popes John XV to XIX and John XVI to XX. These popes have since customarily been renumbered XV to XIX, but John XXI and John XXII continue to bear numbers that they themselves formally adopted on the assumption that there had indeed been 20 Johns before them."

So much for papal infallibility.

There's so much antipathy to John XXIII on the part of more recent popes that I wonder if the Church doesn't have some sort of reverse canonization--you know declare him to be in hell. Since he was using an incorrect numbering that could serve as a basis for considering him to be a fraud. Of course, they'd have to throw in Johns XXII and XXI, but small concessions to the truth have to be made sometimes.

Thomas II · 06-22-2005, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vsop44

One thing that has puzzled me in the history of the catholic church is their choice of the first pope PETER . It is well known that when Jesus said " thou art Peter and upon this rock i will build my church " Jesus was making a pun !!
Isn't he the guy who denied Jesus 3 times before the rooster sang !!!

Now correct me if I am wrong but this guy , when confronted about his connection with Jesus , says that he he has never seen the guy before !!!
and the next thing we know , they make him the first leader of the church , talk about standing by your friends in their hour of need .
As far as I am concerned the first leader of the catholic church was a sleazy scumbag and things went down from there !!

This is strange, because for a person who was supposed to be organizing a new "church" Jesus did not leave any instructions.
And did he want to start a new religion? No sign of that whatsoever.
Jesus was a rabbi. He already had a religion. Had no intention to create a new one.
Paul is the one who took everything to another level. It is Paul's religion, and Paul's Catholic Church.(and Emperor Constantine's Roman Catholic Church)
Jesus was in Heaven, probably just scratching his head, and going "What the fuck?... :huh: "

Joan of Bark · 06-22-2005, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John A. Broussard

There's so much antipathy to John XXIII on the part of more recent popes that I wonder if the Church doesn't have some sort of reverse canonization--you know declare him to be in hell. Since he was using an incorrect numbering that could serve as a basis for considering him to be a fraud. Of course, they'd have to throw in Johns XXII and XXI, but small concessions to the truth have to be made sometimes.

Yeah, he dragged the church kicking and screaming out of the middle ages. It's going to be tougher getting it into the 20th -- let alone the 21st -- century.

Quote:

Originally posted by Thomas II
It is Paul's religion, and Paul's Catholic Church.(and Emperor Constantine's Roman Catholic Church)

I agree.

vsop44 · 06-23-2005, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas II

This is strange, because for a person who was supposed to be organizing a new "church" Jesus did not leave any instructions.

In Fact yes Jesus left some instructions as to who should succeed him at the head of the church ; it is in one of the Nag Hammadi gospels . It was James the brother of Jesus who was to succeed him in what was to be called the church of Jerusalem IIRC . But after Paul came over to talk to James he broke away from the church of Jerusalem and created what we know today as christianity .

Californian · 06-24-2005, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

According to my Encyclopaedia Britannica Almanac 2003 "A confusion in the numbering of popes named John after John XIV resulted because some 11th-century historians mistakenly believed that there had been a pope named John between antipope Boniface VII and the true John XV. Therefore they mistakenly numbered the real popes John XV to XIX and John XVI to XX. These popes have since customarily been renumbered XV to XIX, but John XXI and John XXII continue to bear numbers that they themselves formally adopted on the assumption that there had indeed been 20 Johns before them."

So much for papal infallibility.

Speaking as a former Roman Catholic, :rolling:

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06-21-2005, 07:31 PM	#31
hughmcjr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,908	Actually my belief is that The Holy Spirit is the Way to Jesus who is the Truth to get to Life which is God the Father....Trinity.

06-22-2005, 07:02 AM	#35
vsop44 Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: On an icefloe off the atlantic coast of Canada Posts: 1,095	One thing that has puzzled me in the history of the catholic church is their choice of the first pope PETER . It is well known that when Jesus said " thou art Peter and upon this rock i will build my church " Jesus was making a pun !! Isn't he the guy who denied Jesus 3 times before the rooster sang !!! Now correct me if I am wrong but this guy , when confronted about his connection with Jesus , says that he he has never seen the guy before !!! and the next thing we know , they make him the first leader of the church , talk about standing by your friends in their hour of need . As far as I am concerned the first leader of the catholic church was a sleazy scumbag and things went down from there !!

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