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Old 04-19-2006, 07:31 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by DavidfromTexas
Peter dies as a martyr FOR Christ.
Where does one read this in the canonical Bible? I do not see it there.

Remember, "martyr" in the writings means witness, not necc one put to death as we think of it today.

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This is VERY important.
If it is so important, why is it not in the Bible? If you are accepting non-canonical writings as iron-clad authenticity on this subject, why not accept GJudas as well?
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Old 04-19-2006, 07:44 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Magdlyn
The Origin of Satan by Elaine Pagels might shed light on this subject for many who are speculating.

Jesus also perceives his head disciple, Peter, as Satan.
No doubt, Peter was faith and he is the enemy of liberation. Faith is the vehicle that leads to salvation but is not salvation itself. IOW it is the means to the end that must be abandoned when we get to the end or there would even be temples in the new Jerusalem.
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Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
It was the keen insight of Peter that was to become the rock of salvation and not the doctrine that Peter represented, which was Judaism and that was personified with Judas. That Judas exploded just means that it is the end of Judaism with a new religion on the horizon that is inspired instead of mere doctrine of men.

We must remember here that the Crucifixion of Jesus the Jew is the end of OT Judaism in the mind of Jesus the Christ with the NT being the new and improved recipe to eternal life.
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//

So, it seems to me, Peter and Judas, both betrayers, are seen as similar puppets of Satan. It is unclear whether Jesus' prayers strengthen Peter or not!
Of course it did because Peter had to let go of Jesus that Jesus would stand convicted to die. Peter is the containment of truth but is not the truth. Peter is faith and his adversary is doubt wherefore Peter must be empty and deny Jesus before doubt can be removed after which knowledge frees.
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Old 04-19-2006, 08:01 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Magdlyn
Where does one read this in the canonical Bible? I do not see it there.

If it is so important, why is it not in the Bible? If you are accepting non-canonical writings as iron-clad authenticity on this subject, why not accept GJudas as well?
Peter never died but he moved to Rome loaded with the big fish that he caugth in the celestial waters that are just on the other side of the boat he used to fish in.

You must remember here that Peter was empty and vacant as the vessel of faith wherefore he was naked when he went fishing again and caught nothing all night when Jesus appeared and shouted from the shoreline to cast their nets on the other side of the boat where the fish would be large and easy to slice dogma from. This, then, is where when and how he uploaded his cloak and moved to Rome.
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Old 04-19-2006, 08:06 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Magdlyn
Where does one read this in the canonical Bible? I do not see it there.
Have you not read in the scriptures the following?
John 21:17-24 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus said to him, "Tend My sheep. 18 "Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to gird yourself, and walk wherever you wished; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will gird you, and bring you where you do not wish to go." 19 Now this He said, signifying by what kind of death he would glorify God. And when He had spoken this, He said to him, "Follow Me!" 20 Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them; the one who also had leaned back on His breast at the supper, and said, "Lord, who is the one who betrays You?" 21 Peter therefore seeing him said to Jesus, "Lord, and what about this man?" 22 Jesus said to him, "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!" 23 This saying therefore went out among the brethren that that disciple would not die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but only, "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?" 24 This is the disciple who bears witness of these things, and wrote these things; and we know that his witness is true.
(NAS translation)

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Remember, "martyr" in the writings means witness, not necc one put to death as we think of it today.
Peter's death, which glorified God, certainly served as a witness.


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If it is so important, why is it not in the Bible? If you are accepting non-canonical writings as iron-clad authenticity on this subject, why not accept GJudas as well?
You are misinterpreting what I wrote. What was so important was that God had determined what would happen to Peter in the end. Jesus Christ prophesies and instructs Peter that when he is "turned again", that he is to strengthen the brethren (Luke 22:32). Jesus Christ also prophesied that Peter's death would glorify God. This indicates that in spite of the failings of Peter in denying Christ thrice, that the eternal purposes of God stand firm, which included Peter's strengthening the brethren after he had "turned again", and that Peter's death would glorify God. Therefore there is NOTHING that separates the elect of God from the eternal purposes of God and from the love of God.

This was the reason that I quoted those verses from the gospel of John... " And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
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Old 04-19-2006, 08:26 AM   #15
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Peter's death, which glorified God, certainly served as a witness.
So where does Peter die?
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Old 04-19-2006, 08:39 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Chili
So where does Peter die?
The Bible does not tell us where Peter died, probably because the original authographs of the New Testament were completed before the death of Peter.

The writings of the early Christians give evidence as to where Peter died... The following is an excerpt from this site http://www.new-life.net/faq800.htm.
The earliest mention that we have of Peter's death is in a letter from Clement, bishop of Rome (AD 88-97), to the Corinthians. He mentions the suffering and martyrdom of Peter and Paul in Rome.

Dionysius, bishop of Corinth, bears the following testimony (about AD 180) referring to Peter and Paul: "Both of these having planted the church at Corinth, likewise instructed us; and having in like manner taught in Italy, they suffered martyrdom about the same time."

About AD 200, Tertullian, a Christian teacher, mentions the deaths of Peter and Paul as occurring in Rome under Nero.

Peter's death is also found in Caius, an ecclesiastical writer (3rd century), who says that Peter and Paul "suffered martyrdom about the same time."

Eusebius in his book entitled Ecclesiastical History (written AD 325) says: "Thus Nero publicly announcing himself as the chief enemy of God, was led on in his fury to slaughter the apostles. Paul is therefore said to have been beheaded at Rome, and Peter to have been crucified under him. And this account is confirmed by the fact, that the names of Peter and Paul still remain in the cemeteries of that city even to this day" (Ecclesiastical History 2:25).

This tradition of Peter's death was not localized in Rome alone, but was apparently widespread throughout the Church.

There are also a large number of written stories about Peter. These stories are highly questionable as history, but they all agree when speaking of Peter's death: he was crucified in Rome during the time of Nero. Some of these stories are quite early -- for example "The Acts of Peter" (2nd century AD). It is from "The Acts of Peter" that we get the story of Peter being crucified upside-down. Supposedly Peter requested that he be crucified upside-down because he was "unworthy to die in the same manner as my Lord."

Eusebius also records this story, but says his source is from a church theologian named Origen (who wrote about AD 230): "Peter appears to have preached through Pontus, Galatia, Bithynia, Cappadocia, and Asia, to the Jews that were scattered abroad; who also, finally coming to Rome, was crucified with his head downward, having requested of himself to suffer in this way" (Ecclesiastical History 3:1).
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Old 04-19-2006, 08:55 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Toto
and likewise
Ah, the first part of the post was a general response, as the thread derailed immediately after I posted it. Wasn't targetted at anyone specific.

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Originally Posted by Toto
Satan was conceived as a separate entity, not a metaphor for accuser.
In the New Testament, sure.

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Originally Posted by Toto
And it is a real stretch to say that Judas accused Jesus. He identified him, but the accusations came from the Sanhedrin.
John 18, the next time Judas is mentioned, is not clear on this.

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Originally Posted by Toto
You seem to be working very hard to avoid the idea that the Bible mentions Satan as an evil spirit. Is there a reason for avoiding the plain meaning of the text?
I'm sorry? I'm examining an alternative explanation. I don't believe most of it to begin with. I'm just working in hypotheticals, because it's interesting.
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Old 04-19-2006, 09:29 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidfromTexas
The Bible does not tell us where Peter died, probably because the original authographs of the New Testament were completed before the death of Peter.

The writings of the early Christians give evidence as to where Peter died... The following is an excerpt from this site http://www.new-life.net/faq800.htm.
[INDENT]The earliest mention that we have of Peter's death is in a letter from Clement, bishop of Rome (AD 88-97), to the Corinthians. He mentions the suffering and martyrdom of Peter and Paul in Rome.

What is the "mention?"

All the others were going on hearsay of this "mention" and adding their own legend-building flourishes.

Jesus's "prophecy" is vague and poetic and tells us nothing. And it isn't a prophecy if GJohn was written around the same time Peter was said to have died.
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Old 04-19-2006, 09:40 AM   #19
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From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

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Another testimony concerning the martyrdom of Peter and Paul is supplied by Clement of Rome in his Epistle to the Corinthians (written about A.D. 95-97), wherein he says (v): "Through zeal and cunning the greatest and most righteous supports [of the Church] have suffered persecution and been warred to death. Let us place before our eyes the good Apostles--St. Peter, who in consequence of unjust zeal, suffered not one or two, but numerous miseries, and, having thus given testimony (martyresas), has entered the merited place of glory".
He suffered and he died. Whether he was executed is not stated. All later mentions seem to be embellishments of this terse report. He suppsedly got his info from "the old presbyters" who remain nameless and with no written record of how they knew Peter was executed.

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Clement of Alexandria, who both appeal to the testimony of the old presbyters (i.e., the disciples of the Apostles)[sic]...
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Old 04-19-2006, 11:20 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Magdlyn
From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

He suffered and he died. Whether he was executed is not stated. All later mentions seem to be embellishments of this terse report. He suppsedly got his info from "the old presbyters" who remain nameless and with no written record of how they knew Peter was executed.

But Magdlyn, even that doesn't say that Peter died. Peter was the rock of faith that causes the believer to die while Peter remains forever and ever to be "the other who will tie you fast and carry you off against your will."

The faith of Peter indoctrinates lambs at first while they play and go about their own way as they pleased. Peter then becomes a shepherd who leads them hither and thither while they play until they seek understanding in faith and that is when Peter empties himself during the spellbound "tie you fast'" so they might be brought to everlasting life while Peter remains the empty vessel to be glorified in Rome as Rome and by Rome where Peter is the wherewithal of "the way" that is and remains Jesus.

That is why Christ stayed and Jesus left because when the end is reached the evidence remains but the way is finished.

The spellbound "tie you fast" mode may be an overstatement but if the words "tie you fast" are used in combination with "carry you off" there seems to be very little that we can do about it.
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