Freethought & Rationalism Archive

outhouse · 03-14-2012, 09:20 AM

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Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Most contemporary scholars agree that Jesus was a Jew who was regarded as a teacher and healer, that he was baptized by John the Baptist, and was crucified in Jerusalem on the orders of the Roman Prefect of Judaea, Pontius Pilate, on the charge of sedition against the Roman Empire

last time i checked, you dont have the credibility to take on modern scholarships.

questioning them is healthy, outright dismissal from a standpoint of igmorance is another [facepalm]

Your post is just a big joke. You appear to be ignorant that many so-called Scholars who support an historical Jesus may also worship Jesus and expect a reward from God because they told people Jesus was real.

I have seen a list of over a hundred Scholars and all appear to be BELIEVERS or Christians.

See http://christianscholars.blogspot.com/

There are even Christian Scholars WHO argue that Jesus was a figure of but was actually resurrected.

A resurrected being is a MYTH.

Remarkably, some Christian Scholars support Mythology but are simultaneously arguing that a RESURRECTED Jesus was human.

And again, it is a complete waste of time telling me about QUANTITY when I deal with Evidence, Evidence, EVIDENCE......SOURCES, SOURCES, SOURCES of antiquity.

Billions of people, including Scholars, and even OUTHOUSE, may believe Jesus did exist but ZERO--NIL--NONE can produce a shred of credible evidence from antiquity for their Belief.

there is plenty of evidence, you just discount it all through ignorance.

Josephas
Paul
and the unknown authors of
Mark
Matthew
Luke
John

There doesnt have to be eyewitness accounts

quit ignoring the fact many mortal men were written about mythically and attributed to many powers and made deities. It was normal and hellenistic periods have a pattern of such.

outhouse · 03-14-2012, 09:23 AM

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Most contemporary scholars attended institutions that employed professors that have long supported and taught that view.

Not all

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Most contemporary scholars that have pursued a Degree in Historical studies related to religion, have done so at a religious, or a religion supported Institution.

some do

many do not

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Most contemporary scholars wished to receive their Degrees, and to become respected members of the academic community

some do

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Most contemporary scholars are aware and understand that to succeed in their professional careers, there are certain dues to be paid.

sometimes

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Most contemporary scholars, if in the course of their education, display radical views and opinions that are out of line with those views and positions held by their professors, and with those traditional views long espoused by the institutions they are attending,
Will become invited guests to an academic conference to discuss their future, and whether it would be in the best interests of all concerned, for them to either consider changing their Major, or perhaps to continue their education and pursue their desired Degree elsewhere.

Most Institutes of Higher Education depend on receipt of substantial bequests, donations, gifts, and support from their Alumni, and various wealthy philanthropic contributors. All of whom hold certain influence, and demand certain cultural hegemonic standards and expectations which they expect the recipients of their generosity and support, to in a fair exchange, uphold.

It is therefore not in the least surprising that most contemporary Degreed scholars will be found to be careful in their support of the present overall status-quo vis the existence of a 'historical' J-C, and this subjects sacrosanct standing within the annuals of 'traditional' education.
Loose cannons flunk out. Some find jobs at McD's, most get little further, some commit a slow or a fast suicide.
A very few, learn more, get stronger, overcome every obstacle, and overthrow the idols, institutions, and hegemonies of the ignorant past.

It all comes down to the individual, and what they expect to accomplish with their life.
One can play this game by the rules the power brokers and their institutions have set, and become a respected 'success'.
Or one can follow their conscience in being iconoclasts 'overthrowing the tables of the money changers', -with a price that will be paid-, but that can forever change the world.

yes sometimes there is bias

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It is up to the individual which it is, in their eyes that seems to be the better course, for themselves, and for all of humanity.

False

without the education, one cannot make a reasonable judegement

aa5874 · 03-14-2012, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

...without the education, one cannot make a reasonable judegement

1. All educated people do NOT agree on the nature of Jesus.

2.The Educated still NEED evidence from antiquity to examine in order to determine the nature of Jesus.

3. The educated ONLY have sources of antiquity that show Jesus was the Son of a Sinless Ghost, God the creator, that Walked on water, Transfigured, resurrected and Ascended in a cloud.

4. The Present Bishop of Rome is educated, he may have a Phd, he BELIEVES Jesus did exist and was raised from the dead.

5. The Educated Bishop has ZERO evidence for his Jesus.

6. There are BILLIONS of educated people who have ZERO evidence for their Jesus.

The BELIEF that Jesus existed seems to have nothing whatsoever to do with education but all to do with FAITH.

The disciples of Jesus were supposedly ILLITERATE.

outhouse · 03-14-2012, 08:24 PM

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1. All educated people do NOT agree on the nature of Jesus.

you have 1 real scholar [price] who's theology is easily refuted, and even he holds little credibility due to his views.

Dont get me wrong, the man is brilliant and has done great work towards the history involved and is duly noted

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2.The Educated still NEED evidence from antiquity to examine in order to determine the nature of Jesus.

its there

paul, josephas, and the gospels are all evidence from antiquity

you just fail epically not realizing this.

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3. The educated ONLY have sources of antiquity

there you contradict yourself showing your own ignorance

maiking your statement #2 useless

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that show Jesus was the Son of a Sinless Ghost, God the creator, that Walked on water, Transfigured, resurrected and Ascended in a cloud.

More severe ignorance in the subject at hand

you have been told many times hellenistic romans deified mortal men all the time.

WAKE UP

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4. The Present Bishop of Rome is educated, he may have a Phd, he BELIEVES Jesus did exist and was raised from the dead

true

some people want to believe in biblical jesus and fail to understand historical jesus.

He is just like YOU in this respect, neither understands HJ

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5. The Educated Bishop has ZERO evidence for his Jesus.

More severe ignorance on the historical method.

its not his job to provide historicity.

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6. There are BILLIONS of educated people who have ZERO evidence for their Jesus.

true that most follow biblical jesus and know nothing of HJ. you fit in the same catagory

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The BELIEF that Jesus existed seems to have nothing whatsoever to do with education but all to do with FAITH.

true hellenized romans created biblical jesus.

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The disciples of Jesus were supposedly ILLITERATE.

i dont believe it!!! you said something intelligent

True

They probably were, and preached and spread jesus teachings through oral tradition, that flooded the poor jewish communities with hope.

Enough of these jews began spreading the words he taught until it hit different communities and a differnt culture's, but most importantly, the rich and knowledgeable.

Im just throwing out a guess here but paul used his knowledge to capitolize on this as he witnessed the grip it had on people. Ive never trusted paul nor do I understand him enough to get in deep with his motives.

Sheshbazzar · 03-14-2012, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

It is up to the individual which it is, in their eyes that seems to be the better course, for themselves, and for all of humanity.

False

without the education, one cannot make a reasonable judegement

Ones 'education' will be a reflection of where, how, and by whom they received their 'education'.
Some 'education' is conservative hide-bound don't rock the boat 'traditional' and predictable.

Others obtain their educations through teachers and institutions that encourage the free inquiry and exploration of the subject matter.

The positions held on various subjects by extremely well educated individuals may be, and often are, diametrically opposed.
Each faction has marshaled their arguments, proofs, and evidences, and each faction believes its position to be the correct one.
And of course, that it is the oppositions judgment that is unreasonable and unsupportable.

Thus the individual whom has been exposed to, and has heard the educated opinions of both factions, selects which among these educated opinions and arguments are the most persuasive, And arrives at supporting the educated position that seem most reasonable to them.

Hence; 'It is up to the individual which it is, in their eyes that seems to be the better course,' TRUE.

We hold diametrically opposed opinions as to the existence of a HJ, that I don't happen to agree with you is no indication that I am less educated than you.
Nor do I subscribe to an opinion that you are necessarily less educated than me.

I do not accept the precept of an 'Argument from Authority'. That is, that any 'educated authority figure' either one of us may reference is any ultimate authority on the subject at hand.

Just like between us, any argument any 'authority' may present, only stands on its own merits, not upon any foundation of reverence for 'respected authority'.
Throughout history, all to often the collective opinions of respected authorities and experts have proven to have been in error.

I have read your, and a lifetime of your 'respected authorities' reasonings. And I have not found their positions and claims to be sufficiently persuasive.
Thus I do not concede to either your, or to their opinions.

aa5874 · 03-14-2012, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

More severe ignorance in the subject at hand

you have been told many times hellenistic romans deified mortal men all the time.

WAKE UP.....

Well, you appear to be IGNORANT of the fact that Christians do NOT deify mortal men as Gods.

You appear to be IGNORANT of the Fact that Jesus was described as A MYTH--A Phantom or a Son of a Sinless Ghost.

You appear to be IGNORANT of the Fact that Christians REFUSED to worship Roman Emperors as Gods.

You appear to be IGNORANT of the Fact that it was claimed that Christians were MARTYRED because they refused to DEIFY Roman Emperors.

You appear to be IGNORANT of the Fact that as soon as Jesus was made a God of Rome the deification of Roman Emperors CEASED.

You appear to be IGNORANT of the Fact that the Greeks and Romans Worshiped and Sacrificed to MYTHOLOGICAL Gods for SALVATION.

You appear to be IGNORANT of the Fact that a DEFIED EMPEROR did NOT OFFER UNIVERSAL SALVATION.

Jesus of the NT is claimed to be a UNIVERSAL SAVIOR which is an attribute of Myth Gods not a deified man.

You appear to be Ignorant of the Fact that the Romans worshiped the Mythological JUPITER BEFORE they worshiped Mythological Jesus.

Mythological Jesus was the direct replacement for all the Myth Gods of the Greeks and Romans.

WAKE UP.

Your IMAGINATION is NOT an historical record or evidence of antiquity. WAKE UP.

outhouse · 03-14-2012, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Well, you appear to be IGNORANT of the fact that Christians do NOT deify mortal men as Gods.

christians didnt write anything [facepalm]

outhouse · 03-14-2012, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

False

without the education, one cannot make a reasonable judegement

Ones 'education' will be a reflection of where, how, and by whom they received their 'education'.
Some 'education' is conservative hide-bound don't rock the boat 'traditional' and predictable.

Others obtain their educations through teachers and institutions that encourage the free inquiry and exploration of the subject matter.

The positions held on various subjects by extremely well educated individuals may be, and often are, diametrically opposed.
Each faction has marshaled their arguments, proofs, and evidences, and each faction believes its position to be the correct one.
And of course, that it is the oppositions judgment that is unreasonable and unsupportable.

Thus the individual whom has been exposed to, and has heard the educated opinions of both factions, selects which among these educated opinions and arguments are the most persuasive, And arrives at supporting the educated position that seem most reasonable to them.

Hence; 'It is up to the individual which it is, in their eyes that seems to be the better course,' TRUE.

We hold diametrically opposed opinions as to the existence of a HJ, that I don't happen to agree with you is no indication that I am less educated than you.
Nor do I subscribe to an opinion that you are necessarily less educated than me.

I do not accept the precept of an 'Argument from Authority'. That is, that any 'educated authority figure' either one of us may reference is any ultimate authority on the subject at hand.

Just like between us, any argument any 'authority' may present, only stands on its own merits, not upon any foundation of reverence for 'respected authority'.
Throughout history, all to often the collective opinions of respected authorities and experts have proven to have been in error.

I have read your, and a lifetime of your 'respected authorities' reasonings. And I have not found their positions and claims to be sufficiently persuasive.
Thus I do not concede to either your, or to their opinions.

Very well put, I must say.

I do agree with you in the most part, the main differnce is im a hair on the historicity side.

funny thing is, at other sites im taking heat for arguing a minimal position.

here its just the opposite

aa5874 · 03-14-2012, 10:59 PM

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Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Well, you appear to be IGNORANT of the fact that Christians do NOT deify mortal men as Gods.

christians didnt write anything [facepalm]

Again, you have NOT provided any evidence but just spouting what you IMAGINE.

Please get your EVIDENCE together.

Doug Shaver · 03-15-2012, 08:16 AM

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Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

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Originally Posted by outhouse

But I still think the evidence is overwhelming for a real teacher that was run up a cross.

Considering how many people the Romans crucified in those days, I suppose it's probable that at least one was a teacher.

To be the historical Jesus, though, his disciples would have to have been responsible for creating the religion that evolved into Christianity as we know it. What is your overwhelming evidence for that?

Nope false.

jesus didnt ever, nor tried. To start a new religion.

Take another look at what I wrote. I didn't say he started anything.

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