Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Cubeless Academian · 08-03-2004, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genesis 4:20-21

Adah gave birth to Jabal; he was the father of all those who dwell in tents and have livestock. His brother's name was Jubal; he was the father of all those who play the lyre and pipe.

According to the myth, Jabal and Jubal were the great-great-great-great-grandsons of Cain, contemporaries of Noah's grandfather. So they only had two generations of descendants before the flood came and wiped them all out, and none of their descendants were still living when Genesis was written.

So why would the writer of Genesis (Moses, supposedly) describe Jabal as "the father of all those who dwell in tents and have livestock"? None of the tent-dwelling livestock-keeprs of Moses' day could have been descendants of Jabal.

Toto · 08-04-2004, 01:06 AM

Good question. Being an unbeliever, I would assume that you have caught a problem in the Bible, or that this is proof that the Bible is not to be interpreted literally. But there are those who disagree:

Density Church

Quote:

Many Sceptical Non-Believers would find here evidence of the Bible making a mistake. But I have a good explanation! You remember that Jabal, the first shepherd, also lived in tents! Well, who's to say that he didn't turn his tent upside down, and float around in it for 360 days, while the flood waters were on the earth, eh?? Who says that COULDN'T have happened. With God, all things are possible!

And perhaps Jabal also invited his two brothers Jubal and Tubal into the makeshift boat! Once the three were inside the upside-down tent, they were not "on the earth", so Yahweh did not have to "blot them out". And maybe Noah threw food down from the Ark for them.

So, they survived the flood along with Noah!!

You see, if you have a little faith, you can harmonize these two stories - which at first sight appear to be completely contradictory.

Praise the Lord!

On second thought, this Density Church appears to be the New Zealand branch of Landover Baptist. I think the motto "happy clapping for Jesus" is a dead giveaway.

Okay, here's a Noah's Ark enthusiast's take:

Quote:

(2) Jabal, Jubal, and Tubalcain were apparently amongst those on the ark with Noah. How else could they be the instructor of every?, the father of every?, etc. (Genesis 4:19-22).

Initially, when Cain was evicted from dwelling in Eden that eviction was permanent for him (Genesis 4:11-17). However, his later generations apparently had been allowed to return and both helped build Noah's great floating city, the extensive raft-like ark, and survived with Noah. Noah and his three sons both ruled and represented each of the four river regions. Again, some of Cain's descendants from each of the four river regions were with Noah on the ark as "beasts."

Hm. I'm not sure this deserves much more respect that Brother Brian's answer.

It's late and I'm a little out of it.

Cubeless Academian · 08-04-2004, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Again, some of Cain's descendants from each of the four river regions were with Noah on the ark as "beasts."

As beasts? I wonder if Cainites were considered "clean" or "unclean" animals?

LP675 · 08-04-2004, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cubeless Academian

So why would the writer of Genesis (Moses, supposedly) describe Jabal as "the father of all those who dwell in tents and have livestock"? None of the tent-dwelling livestock-keeprs of Moses' day could have been descendants of Jabal.

A common explanation (and I think perhaps more defensible than others discussed) is that when one says a person is “the father of all who do activity X�? it is a way of saying that person was the first to do activity X, or was the inventor of activity X, or perhaps some sort of archetype of those who engage in activity X.

LP

Cubeless Academian · 08-04-2004, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LP675

A common explanation (and I think perhaps more defensible than others discussed) is that when one says a person is “the father of all who do activity X�? it is a way of saying that person was the first to do activity X, or was the inventor of activity X, or perhaps some sort of archetype of those who engage in activity X.

LP

I don't think Jabal could have been the first to keep livestock and live in a tent. That honor belongs to his great-great-great-great-grandfather, Cain.

yummyfur · 08-04-2004, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cubeless Academian

I don't think Jabal could have been the first to keep livestock and live in a tent. That honor belongs to his great-great-great-great-grandfather, Cain.

Actually it was Abel who kept livestock, Cain was a tiller of the soil. Since Abel was murdered the trade could be considered lost(he had no offspring to teach it to). Cain is cursed to wander(though it doesn't say he had a tent), but it never says he raised livestock, merely that he couldn't grow crops. He becomes essentially a hunter-gatherer.

So Jabal was the first one who taught nomadic livestock herding. Also Genesis never states whether Abel was nomadic, which seems to be an important part of Jabal's occupation. It is possible to raise livestock without being nomadic.

Cubeless Academian · 08-05-2004, 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yummyfur

Actually it was Abel who kept livestock, Cain was a tiller of the soil. Since Abel was murdered the trade could be considered lost(he had no offspring to teach it to). Cain is cursed to wander(though it doesn't say he had a tent), but it never says he raised livestock, merely that he couldn't grow crops. He becomes essentially a hunter-gatherer.

So Jabal was the first one who taught nomadic livestock herding. Also Genesis never states whether Abel was nomadic, which seems to be an important part of Jabal's occupation. It is possible to raise livestock without being nomadic.

You're right, of course. I had Cain and Abel flip-flopped. So, yes, Jabal could have been the first tent-dwelling livestock herder.

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