Freethought & Rationalism Archive

JoeWallack · 08-29-2006, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JW

Originally Posted by JoeWallack View Post
"First" as Superlative goes very well with a Time Qualification (Chronological). Like Bacon and Eggs, Politics and Greek, Jeff Gibson and Ad Hominens. 2:2 has just such a Time Qualification ("while Quirinius was governor of Syria.").

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.C.Carlson

Thanks for pointing something new out to me, though it is not what you think. There is no explicit time qualification in Luke 2:2. Though the English rendering "while Quirinius was governor of Syria" looks like a temporal clause, the Greek phrase ἡγεμονεύοντος τῆς Συρίας Κυρηνίου is merely a genitive absolute. Whether such a participal phrase is temporal or something else has to be determined by context.

It had been bothering me for a long time that, if ἡγεμονεύοντος τῆς Συρίας Κυρηνίου was temporal, why doesn't it preceed the main verb as such genitive absolutes usually do? Instead, it follows the main verb. Looking at the examples in BDF, most of such cases are not temporal at all, but causal or concessive. If the genitive absolute ἡγεμονεύοντος τῆς Συρίας Κυρηνίου is rendered as a causal phrase, then the whole verse means something like: "this became a very important registration on account of Quirinius' governing of Syria." In other words, the Augustan policy of registration did not become a big deal until Quirinius executed one in the way that he did it.

So, there is certainly no explicit time qualification in Luke 2:2, and a closer look at the grammar, inspired by your (ultimately incorrect) claim, indicates that the genitive absolute should not be read to imply one either.

Thanks,

Stephen

JW:
Well now you're talking to me Stephen. Yes, the causal relationship of your proposed translation "this became a very important registration on account of Quirinius' governing of Syria." looks awkward. On the other hand, the normal translation:

"This was the first registration on account of Quirinius' governing of Syria" looks better. This registration (Judea) was because Quirinius became governor of Syria. Just like Josephus tells us. You also have the Context of "Luke" explaining why Joseph goes to Bethlehem. You shouldn't just consider the context of Augustus' decree and ignore the context of Joseph's move.

This is why you should bring ideas like this here (II). The inevitable criticism will force you to broaden your considerations.

Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

jgibson000 · 08-29-2006, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

JW:
Sure Jeff, PRWTOS has two Primary meanings.

Mods, can we get a split-off here for the following Thread:

Stupid Things Jeff Gibson Has Said In The Carrier's Luke vs. Matthew on the Year of Christ's Birth Now Up At ErrancyWiki Thread.

Only if it can be shown that my speaking of how lexicograpehers do not regard "formemost" as a secondary or "less basic" meaning of PRWTOS is really the same, as you seem to think it is, as my saying that PRWTOS has two "Primary" meanings.

In any case, I thank you not to put words in my mouth.

I'd also thank you if you'd actually answer, rather than avoid, the questions I asked you not only about whether you can document from Danker himself your claim that in his presentation of the lexical data and the semanitc range of a word, he "Generally" ...show[s] Primary first" vs. whether this is just an unsubstantiated assumption on your part, but also

(1) about what you make of the fact that the way the data on PRWTOS is set out in LSJ stands in contradiction to your claim about how the order of presentation of the meanings of a word in a Lexicon shows what is primary and what is secondary word and

(2) how you account for the fact that the first sentence in the entry on PRWTOS in TDNT makes nonsense of your claim that the primary meaning of PRWTOS is "first in sequence or number" and that "foremost" is and always has been a "secondary" and derivitive meaning.

You accuse and upbraid others for ignoring questions you put to them. But if they do, they are only following your example.

Jeffrey Gibson

JoeWallack · 08-29-2006, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JW

Sure Jeff, PRWTOS has two Primary meanings.

Mods, can we get a split-off here for the following Thread:

Stupid Things Jeff Gibson Has Said In The Carrier's Luke vs. Matthew on the Year of Christ's Birth Now Up At ErrancyWiki Thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff

Only if it can be shown that my speaking of how lexicograpehers do not regard "formemost" as a secondary or "less basic" meaning of PRWTOS is really the same, as you seem to think it is, as my saying that PRWTOS has two "Primary" meanings.

In any case, I thank you not to put words in my mouth.

I'd also thank you if you'd actually answer, rather than avoid, the questions I asked you not only about whether you can document from Danker himself your claim that in his presentation of the lexical data and the semanitc range of a word, he "Generally" ...show[s] Primary first" vs. whether this is just an unsubstantiated assumption on your part, but also

(1) about what you make of the fact that the way the data on PRWTOS is set out in LSJ stands in contradiction to your claim about how the order of presentation of the meanings of a word in a Lexicon shows what is primary and what is secondary word and

(2) how you account for the fact that the first sentence in the entry on PRWTOS in TDNT makes nonsense of your claim that the primary meaning of PRWTOS is "first in sequence or number" and that "foremost" is and always has been a "secondary" and derivitive meaning.

You accuse and upbraid others for ignoring questions you put to them. But if they do, they are only following your example.

Jeff

JW:
What exactly do I have to do to get you to comment Directly on Stephen's claim that "Foremost" is Probable for 2:2?

I know, I'll pay you double what the Christians are paying you.

By The Way, my summary says:

"1) Lexicon = The offending word has a Root and Primary meaning of "First"."

and not ""first in sequence or number". But if you come work for me you have my permission to do that Type of thing. It's what you do best.

Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

jgibson000 · 08-29-2006, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

JW:
What exactly do I have to do to get you to comment Directly on Stephen's claim that "Foremost" is Probable for 2:2?

Answer "Directly" and without any of your usual smarminess the questions I have put to you in this thread in messages

3704600

3707250

#3707138

3711324

and

3712172

Quote:

I know, I'll pay you double what the Christians are paying you.

Which would amount to exactly $0.00.

Quote:

By The Way, my summary says:

"1) Lexicon = The offending word has a Root and Primary meaning of "First"."

and not ""first in sequence or number".

But isn't this what you think (and have argued) the "primary" meaning of PRWTOS is? If not, what is it then?

Jeffrey Gibson

JoeWallack · 08-29-2006, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JW

What exactly do I have to do to get you to comment Directly on Stephen's claim that "Foremost" is Probable for 2:2?

Quote:

Answer "Directly" and without any of your usual smarminess the questions I have put to you in this thread in messages

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showpost.php...0&postcount=14

...

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgibson000

JW:
Let's look at the Grammar for the Traditional Translation:

Luke 2:1-2

ἐγένετο δὲ----------ἐν---ταῖς----ἡμέραις--ἐκείναις--ἐξῆλθεν-------δόγμα

And it came about---in---those---days----that-----was sent out--a decree

παρὰ--Καίσαρος-Αὐγούστου-ἀπογράφεσθαι-πᾶσαν-τὴν--οἰκουμένην

from--Caesar---Augustus---to register-----all-----the--world

αὕτη--ἀπογραφὴ---πρώτη-----ἐγένετο--ἡγεμονεύοντος--τῆς

This--registration--was first---while-----is ruling---------the

Συρίας----Κυρηνίου

of Syria----Quirinius.

JW:
Mr. Carlson, you've previously indicated there is nothing wrong with the Grammar here. Do you still believe this? Most of the related Apologies I've seen say the grammar is "awkward" with the use of "first" but I don't see anything awkward about the grammar. Do you?

Joseph,

Perhaps you'd be kind enough to tell us how a posting of both the Greek text of Luke 2:1-2 and an interlinear translation of it constitues an actual "look at" (analyis) -- let alone a discussion -- of the grammar [how the text plays out against the rules of Greek syntax and morphology, etc.] of this passage?

Jeffrey Gibson

JW:
This question is so fucking stupid it makes me not care what you think. Yes, what reason would I have to Start with a Greek to English translation for an Issue that is Primarily a Greek to English translation and is also a useful Reference and Starting point for the discussion.

I'm not going to lie to get you to participate here. Pick one question and I'll try to answer Sincerely. Than I'll leave it up to you to comment on Stephen accordingly. If this works on the First question you can than pick another.

Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

S.C.Carlson · 08-29-2006, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

αὕτη--ἀπογραφὴ---πρώτη-----ἐγένετο--ἡγεμονεύοντος--τῆς

This--registration--was first---while-----is ruling---------the

I'm not sure where you're getting the interlinear from, but ἐγένετο definitely does not mean "while." It is a verb, not a conjunction.

Stephen

JoeWallack · 08-29-2006, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JW

αὕτη--ἀπογραφὴ---πρώτη-----ἐγένετο--ἡγεμονεύοντος--τῆς

This--registration--was first---while-----is ruling---------the

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.C.Carlson

I'm not sure where you're getting the interlinear from, but ἐγένετο definitely does not mean "while." It is a verb, not a conjunction.
Stephen

JW:
The Interlinear I looked at takes "taken" as Implied in English. But I should have written "(taken) while". My mistake. See how easy that was.

Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

S.C.Carlson · 08-29-2006, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

JW:
The Interlinear I looked at takes "taken" as Implied in English. But I should have written "(taken) while". My mistake. See how easy that was.

What interlinear are you talking about? At any rate, changing "while" to "(taken) while" does not fix the problem. For starters ἐγενετο does not mean "taken while"; if anything, it corresponds to the "was" that is improperly linked to πρώτη. Face it--the interlinear's author is clueless about Greek grammar and you should request a refund if you still can.

Stephen

JoeWallack · 08-29-2006, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JW

The Interlinear I looked at takes "taken" as Implied in English. But I should have written "(taken) while". My mistake. See how easy that was.

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.C.Carlson

What interlinear are you talking about? At any rate, changing "while" to "(taken) while" does not fix the problem. For starters ἐγενετο does not mean "taken while"; if anything, it corresponds to the "was" that is improperly linked to πρώτη. Face it--the interlinear's author is clueless about Greek grammar and you should request a refund if you still can.

JW:
It's UBS, maybe you've heard of them. You're being a little over dramatic, don't you think. Interlinears are not precise because of different Implications and conventions in different languages. But you already knew that right.

Just give your own Interlinear. How the words coordinate is an Issue that effects the meaning so we need to see your Linear translation anyway. Unless you haven't thought it through that far yet.

Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

Chris Weimer · 08-29-2006, 10:13 PM

My own interlinear!

αὕτη ἀπογραφὴ πρώτη ἐγένετο ἡγεμονεύοντος τῆς Συρίας Κυρηνίου

This registration first/foremost came into being acting as ruler of Syria with Quirinius.

Or in better, "This first registration came into being with Quirinius acting as ruler of Syria."

Or, in Stephen's variant, "This foremost registration came into being with Qurinius acting as ruler of Syria."

You can see the Liddle-Scott entry here.

Personally, Stephen, I find your translation harder to swallow than the given one.

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08-29-2006, 10:13 PM	#50
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	My own interlinear! αὕτη ἀπογραφὴ πρώτη ἐγένετο ἡγεμονεύοντος τῆς Συρίας Κυρηνίου This registration first/foremost came into being acting as ruler of Syria with Quirinius. Or in better, "This first registration came into being with Quirinius acting as ruler of Syria." Or, in Stephen's variant, "This foremost registration came into being with Qurinius acting as ruler of Syria." You can see the Liddle-Scott entry here. Personally, Stephen, I find your translation harder to swallow than the given one.

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