Faid

Red Herring, dave.

Faid

Dave, Was HOMER a real person?

We have WAY more evidence for the existence of this most ancient of poets than that of Abraham- and Yet, many still dispute he ever existed.

Why do you suppose that is? I'm not saying that I believe he was real or not- I'm just asking WHY his existence would be even questioned, since he has much more evidence supporting it than Abraham.

Faid

Dave, a theory is good in the field it APPLIES to. The DH does not seek to prove or disprove that Moses was a real person. It does not seek to discover the roots of the stories in the Torah from the dawn of the Hebrew culture. OR comment on their validity. It has, as a theory, a specific CONTEXT. It deals with the Torah itself, and how it was compiled.

Address THAT, please. And stop moving goalposts.

-Jay-

Because demonstrating that writing is old doesn't imply that everything was written down. What you have to show is an exemplar of the Israelite history, at the time of interest, actually being fixed in writing.

regards,

NinJay

Faid

Dave, Not only this in not "showing" anything, it's a gross non-sequitur. WHY does the fact that writing existed in the area provide evidence that Israelite history is "fixed in writing"?
Dave, writing existed around Greece from before 1500 BC. But was Greek history "fixed in writing" from that time? Absolutely NOT.

And, of course, what Dean repeatedly told you is that Wellhausen's beliefs on that issue have no bearing on the DH. It's just what he believes.

Come on. We've learned it by heart by now.

Dave Hawkins

Thank you. In other words, he said ...

"Wait a minute guys. This convoluted epicycle stuff is ridiculous. Let's go back to square one and start over."

Just what us Tablet Theory people are suggesting we do.

Faid

WHAT?

You can't be serious.

Dave, when SCRIBES write something a person dictates, they write it the way he says it. Or are you living in a Monty Python scetch?

Imhotep: "I, Imhotep, have spoken with the gods..."

Scribe: [writes] "HE, Imhotep, says he has spoken with the Gods..."


Imhotep: [looking over the scribe's shoulder] "Just WHAT do you think you're doing there, slave"?

Scribe: [still writing] "...'there, slave?', the mighty Imhotep proclaimed with fury..."

*SLASH*

*thud*

Imhotep: "Allright, bring me another scribe. And remind me to add something to the Laws about hiring idiots as scribes. Something nasty".

Silent Dave

And, for the sake of humoring you, just what we* Document Hypothesis people are doing.

Guess what. DH stands. TT fails. Call it "ridiculous" if your personal incredulity and/or desperation to salvage inerrancy demands it -- the fact remains.

Cope.


*I say "we" in the same spirit in which Dave counts himself among the "Tablet Theory people" -- as far as I can tell, we have both done precisely the same amount of original research on the subject; to wit, nil.

Cege

You provided these quotes:

"Ancient Israel was certainly not without God-given bases for the ordering of human life; only they were not fixed in writing." (Julius Wellhausen, Prolegomena to the History of Israel. Translated by Black and Menzies. Edinburgh: Adam and Charles Black, 1885, p.393)

"Of the legendary character of the pre-Mosaic narrators, the time of which they treat is a sufficient proof. It was a time prior to all knowledge of writing, a time separated by an interval of more than four hundred years, of which there is absolutely no history, from the nearest period of which Israel had some dim historical recollection, a time when in civilised countries writing was only beginning to be used for the most important matters of State ... And even when writing had come into use, in the time, that is, between Moses and David, it would be but sparingly used, and much that happened to the people must still have been handed down simply as legend." (Hermann Schultz, Old Testament Theology, Translated from the fourth edition by H.A. Patterson, Edinburgh: T&T Clark, 1898, p.25, 26) (Quoted by McDowell, Evidence that Demands a Verdict, Vol. 2, pp. 68-69)

The Welhausen quotation can be found in it's context here Welhausen was discussing ancient history before the time of Moses (when the bible declares a written record was made by God onto 2 or 12 tablets of stone which were then placed inside the ark of the covenant). Before Moses received stone tablets with writing on them, God's instructions to men were passed on by word of mouth.

That writing was used in ancient Egypt does not establish that Israelites previous to Moses or his lifetime were using writing to record their history. There are archeological finds that establish Egyptian writing but none that establish ancient Israelite writing.

Faid

EXPLAIN the difference- In the context of Dean's ANALOGY.

Dave, this is like someone saying "The F-16 has a short wingspan and is therefore more maneuverable and agile, like a hawk"... And you saying "Your analogy sucks! A hawk is a bird covered with feathers, and The F-16 is made of metal!"

(please bear in mind that I am not claiming veracity of the particular analogy. I am just demonstrating the fundamentally flawed attempt to discredit it)