Freethought & Rationalism Archive

wildernesse · 01-07-2004, 10:50 AM

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Originally posted by Llyricist
Well my take is thus:

1) The skeptics round these parts (IIDB) complain about what the fundies are trying to do and make law in the US.

2) The Liberal Christians turn around and say hey,...that's just the fundies, most of us don't agree with that!

3) The skeptics say, then why don't you stand up against it?

4) Now we have wildernesse saying, why should I? It's not part of my religion to oppose it!

Did I ever say "I" am a liberal Christian in this thread? Since no one has tried yet to distinguish liberal Christians from the whole of Christianity on the basis of actual Christian teachings, why would I claim that I am something that has not shown to exist?

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wildernesse, that looks like the old having cake and eating it too. Are you personally opposed to those things or not?? If not, then you aren't one of those liberal Christians from 2) above, if so, then your demand in 4) is unnecessary, there is no religious reason to do it, only the personal reason.

I don't see where my personal opposition or support to "those things" (are there only the four that have been listed?) makes any difference to the question I asked in the OP.

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The fact is that the fundies use the fact that Christians make up a majority to bolster their claims, and the lib Christians around here say that they don't really agree, yet do nothing to knock down the supposedly inflated numbers the fundies represent.

This isn't an issue about your religion, it's about the country as a whole.

Why would liberal Christians have to work to knock down the inflated numbers? Surely everyone here knows that might doesn't make right, and that 10,000 people *can* be wrong. Or whatever number.

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Frankly though, I think the golden rule should cover why you should; if you don't want the government telling YOU how to worship, then you should speak up against anyone telling OTHERS how to worship

(though I fully realize this is contradicted by the missionary imperitive, it's worth a shot )

Thank you. The golden rule is a good response--it is part of Christian tradition and theology. How exactly would the golden rule work to make liberal Christians stand up to fundamentalist Christians? And how do you know that fundamentalist Christians aren't applying the golden rule to their lives as well, and simply coming up with different answers? Does applying the golden rule create a certainty of acting in a certain fashion? If you think that there is one contradiction in Christianity's application of the golden rule, can there be others? How do those interact to prevent the golden rule from operating?

trendkill · 01-07-2004, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wildernesse
Well and good.

Yes, it is. The questions below are for liberal Christians to answer. Possibly, given the obtuse responses of the thread-starter, this thread would have been more honest if it had been directed at them. They are, after all, the ones in the best position to talk about the nature of liberal Christianity, and the statements about them referenced in the OP were not made in a vacuum, but in response to statements by them.

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Is there anything in the "liberal Christian value system" that is antithetical to extreme Christian conservatives? Why should liberal Christians want to be distinguished from fundies--if they can be? Why should Christians be concerned with self-interest?

wildernesse · 01-07-2004, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BioBeing
Well, for my example of YEC and creation science - where is the biblical evidence that that is not real? One can interpret the bible, but no-where in the bible does it say that Genesis is just a parable - does it?

So, what *biblical* evidence is there against YEC? I would say none.

As to traditional teaching - well you have the RC Church, but that is a recent "tradition" to be sure.

Does this mean that YEC is thus therefore correct?

If you answer yes, then OK - but you are probably not a liberal Xian.

However, if you answer NO, then are you not morally responsible to stand up against what you believe to be wrong? Regardless of what the bible says...

I did not ask for answers regardless of what the bible says--unless your argument is that liberal Christians do not use the bible as a moral guide. Anyway, if you are morally responsible to stand up against what you believe to be wrong--aren't the fundamentalists equally as moral as the liberals for standing up for what they think is right? Why should liberals oppose people who are being morally responsible?

Lanakila · 01-07-2004, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wildernesse
What is it in the Christian religion that should make a Christian do what you would like liberal Christians to do? Where do you find directions within Christianity to support church state separation? Or any activity involving public schools or politics? Why should a Christian of any stripe feel compelled to rebuke those who are not members of their congregation? I'll take Bible verses or traditional teachings.

As a former fundie that thought the church should stay out of politics I can give you a Bible answer. Romans chapter 13 talks about submitting to the government. Jesus taught that Christians should render unto Caesar what is Caesar's (taxes) and what is God's unto God (tithes, offerings, works, and ministies). Christians are taught to turn the other cheek, and give a man your cloak, if he asks for your shirt. The churches goal, actually has nothing whatsoever to do with government. Its actually supposed to thrive under persecution anyway, so why does it need or deseve government sanction? The answer is it doesn't.

Not sure if you should feel compelled to rebuke, but distancing yourself by saying I disagree, is probably a good idea.

Dargo · 01-07-2004, 11:07 AM

I think one of the problems liberal Christians face is that they know the Bible is usually on the side of the fundies. Confronting the fundies forces them to publicly admit the Bible is mostly crap and thus undermine their religion.

wildernesse · 01-07-2004, 11:10 AM

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Originally posted by Yahzi
quote:
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Mat 22:21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
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Thank you for the Bible verse. Does this apply to a governing system that is by the people, for the people? How do you apply this verse about taxes to support for church/state separation? Please be explicit. Consider your audience, if you will (me).

wildernesse · 01-07-2004, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by trendkill
Yes, it is. The questions below are for liberal Christians to answer. Possibly, given the obtuse responses of the thread-starter, this thread would have been more honest if it had been directed at them. They are, after all, the ones in the best position to talk about the nature of liberal Christianity, and the statements about them referenced in the OP were not made in a vacuum, but in response to statements by them.

I'm not sure how liberal Christians could respond to what non-believers think that they (liberal Christians) should stand up to with respect to fundamentalist theology or actions. It seems to me that only non-believers could fully answer this question.

I only asked what non-believers thought liberal Christians should do, and what basis they thought liberal Christians would have in doing what non-believers thought they should do.

Lanakila · 01-07-2004, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wildernesse
I Anyway, if you are morally responsible to stand up against what you believe to be wrong--aren't the fundamentalists equally as moral as the liberals for standing up for what they think is right? Why should liberals oppose people who are being morally responsible?

But, curbing the rights of others whether you believe it to be moral or not, isn't. The fundies, do need to mind their own business. If they want to preach in their churches, they may, but they really need to take care of their own, and leave the rest of us alone.

wildernesse · 01-07-2004, 11:20 AM

I'm still interested in any lists of fundamentalist Christian doctrines/actions that liberal Christians should "take stands" against and why they should, based in their Christianity.

I have to study now, but I will try to respond to the other posts later. Thank you to those who have responded already.

Lanakila · 01-07-2004, 11:28 AM

Religious Right agenda:

Pushing Government to promote religion, and primarily Judeo/Christian religion.

Making any and all abortion illegal everywhere on the planet.

Promoting intolerance or gays, lesbians, and bisexuals.

Forcing public schools, colleges, and universities to teach creationism as a viable science.

That is all I can think of off hand. But I am sure there are more points.

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01-07-2004, 11:07 AM	#15
Dargo Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 713	I think one of the problems liberal Christians face is that they know the Bible is usually on the side of the fundies. Confronting the fundies forces them to publicly admit the Bible is mostly crap and thus undermine their religion.

01-07-2004, 11:20 AM	#19
wildernesse Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 1,578	I'm still interested in any lists of fundamentalist Christian doctrines/actions that liberal Christians should "take stands" against and why they should, based in their Christianity. I have to study now, but I will try to respond to the other posts later. Thank you to those who have responded already.

01-07-2004, 11:28 AM	#20
Lanakila Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,858	Religious Right agenda: Pushing Government to promote religion, and primarily Judeo/Christian religion. Making any and all abortion illegal everywhere on the planet. Promoting intolerance or gays, lesbians, and bisexuals. Forcing public schools, colleges, and universities to teach creationism as a viable science. That is all I can think of off hand. But I am sure there are more points.

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