John A. Broussard

I learn something new every day.

Like you, I thought the OT said Jesus wrote something on the ground, so I checked it out.

Nowhere does it say what he wrote or even if he wrote anything at all.

This forum has its value beyond entertainment.

chimaira

[ les mains et les pieds du Messie de
QUOTE=Jenn6162][SIZE=2][B]The seraient percés. [/B ] [/TAILLE ]
[ SIZE=2]prophétie [/TAILLE ] [ B]Psalm 22:16c [/B ] "... elles
ont percé mes mains et mes pieds." [ SIZE=2]Fulfillment[/SIZE ]
[ B]Matthew 27:38 [/B ] "et eux l'a crucifié..." [
url]http://www.messiahrevealed.org/[/url ] que j'espérais commencer
une discussion sur la prophétie accomplie. Nous savons que les
psaumes ont été écrits autour du 10ème siècle AVANT JÉSUS
CHRIST, ainsi comment cette prophétie pourrait-elle être tellement
étonnamment précise tout en étant écrit tellement il y a bien
longtemps ? Nous savons qu'un homme appelé Jésus a été
crucifié pour que prétendre soit le fils de Dieu, ainsi c'Ã* mon
avis n'est pas le genre de prophétie qui est invérifiable exigeant
de la foi de croire. Thoughts??[/QUOTE ]

Hello

The missionaries will say that Psalm 22 Describes the vents of the crucifiction of Jesus described in detail 1000 years in advance. They will specifically point to verse 1 and compare it to the words Jesus said on the cross as quoted in Matthew 27:46 of the New Testament "About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, 'E loi, E loi, lama sabachthani?' -- which means "My G-d, my G-d, why have you forsaken me?' "

The Reply is Yes, Matt 27:46 does quote Psalm 22 in part,as the Psalm does have the author say "My G-d, my G-d why have you forsaken me?" But if you read the entire Psalm of David, you may also notice that the person in question is asking the L-rd in verses 20-21 to save him from the sword. It is more likely that this Psalm refers to David himself when he was fleeing Saul.

You might also ask yourself, why, if Jesus is G-d as the Chrisitians claim, did he cry out to G-d asking why He had forsaken him. It is simply not logical. Of course, Jesus the man, who is not G-d, could certainly be expected to cry out to G-d when he was being crucified for rebellion to Rome.

The missionaries will say further say that 22:8,9 has the person mocked and taunted and that Jesus was mocked and taunted in Matt27:39-43 and Luke 23:11-35.

The Reply is that many people have been mocked and taunted, this does not refer exclusively to Jesus. In fact, since the Psalm is taking about David, it is more logical to assume that David was being mocked and taunted when fleeing Saul.

The missionaries will say additionally, that verse 22:15-18 refer to the crucifixtion as depicted in Matt 27:31, Mark15:20,25, and John19:15 in the New Testament.

The Reply is that verses 15-18 say (JPS): " My life ebbs away; all my bones are disjointed; my heart is like wax, melting within me; my vigor dries up like a shard; my tongue cleaves to my palate; You commit me to the dust of the earth. Dogs surround me; a pack of evil ones closes in on me, like lions [they maul] my hands and feet. I take the count of all my bones while they look on and gloat." (JPS) Notice that this in no way refers to crucifixion. The Christian missionaries often will show you a mistranslation of this, writing "they peirce my hands and feet" instead of "like lions [they maul] my hands and feet". The Hebrew there is k'ari which means like a lion, not peirced. Additionally, having dogs surround him and also lions makes more sense. Mistranslations prove only that the missionaries trying to convert you are deceptive. David was the one beset here by his enemies, those who allied themselves with Saul, not Jesus. I would also note that this is all present tense, and is not a prophecy of the future.

The missionaries will say that verse 22:19 is a prophecy that people will cast lots for the Messiah's garments and will mention the events in Matt 27:35, Mark 15:24, and John 19:23-24 where it is said that they cast lots over Jesus' garments.

The Reply is that as the rest of this psalm refered to David, it is logical that this also refers to David. The verse says "They divide my cloths among themselves, casting lots for my garments" Notice that verse 8 says that the person whose cloths is being divided takes count of his bones while they look on and gloat. Clearly this is a man who is starving. I suggest a careful reading of the entire psalm from a Jewish translation.

Chris Weimer

Ah, the joy of cut-and-pasters.

Jenn6162

It would have been such a great story too, I wish Jesus had wrote something in the ground. Oh well. Thanks for commenting. I really shoudn't have posted that. I have completely derailed my own thread. It kinda had to do with prophecy. What can I say, I sometimes can be bright and sometimes very dim.

John A. Broussard

If Jesus existed, the chances are that he was illiterate as were much of the population of his day. So the writing might have just been a big X.

But, let's get back to your OP.

Prohecies can turn out to be true for a variety of reasons. Misinterpretation, luck, divine intercession, demonic intercession, after the fact revision, etc. How do you pick the right answer out of the various possibilities?

Chris Weimer

Easy John! You convince yourself that what you believe in is right then whatever agrees with you is for God and whatever disagrees with you is for Satan. Hence all Christians actually worship themselves over God (or in some cases, if they're that brain-dead, they'll worship their pastor/priest/parents over themselves).

cass256

This is a prophecy fufilled that I have always had trouble with.
i don't know if this one has been discussed.

I think this is an example that shows why so many are feeling that stories were made up to fit the events of Jesus death and claim fulfilled prophecy. Where is the prophecy in Jeremiah that according to the above quote from the NT was fulfilled? There is one in Zecheriah, but if the Bible is exact and literal how did such a mistake as to who the Prophet was, and what the supposed prophecy is that was fulfilled ?.

not only did Matthew use the wrong prophet, but when the story is told by Luke, in Acts, it is a completly different set of circumstances. Judas, instead, keeps the money, doesn't give it back, but himself buys a field, and then falls headlong into it and bursts open spilling his guts out. No hanging, no throwing of silver back in the temple. Acts 1:18

Prophecy fulfilled?

Dargo

I once read a Biblical commentary which claimed that Matthew was quoting prophecies from both Zachariah 11:12-13 and a verse in Jeremiah (can't remember the reference right now) which says something about buying a field. He only mentioned Jeremiah since he was the better known author. Supposedly, this was a common literary practice at the time. The commentator was a lot more long-winded and I think threw in a couple of other verses from Jeremiah for good measure. Even all the verses together, don't say anything about the Messiah, anyone being betrayed, or anyone commiting suicide. It's not like apologists have to make sense or anything. like that.

cass256

That is what drives me crazy now that I have read the whole stories and not just take it in small pieces at a time like Christians are taught to do.
It is frustrating that it is so obvious Matthew was trying to fit a prophecy with his story about 30 pieces of silver, and then Luke tells a completely different story of judas' death and what happened with the money, but he was going for a different prophecy to have been fulfilled! That of who took judas' place. We are to ignore the differing accounts and say chalk up another prophecy fulfilled?

It puts quite a meaning to blind faith. You wuold have to be blind to miss the differences in the 2 storys. But, chalk up 2 prophecys fufilled. it doesn't matter that spending the money is different from giving the money back, and hanging oneself is different from falling headlong and bursting your guts out.

it's like the story of "Jesus" sending for a donkey so he could fulfill Zechariah 9:9 Both matthew and John wanted that one fufilled, but their sources obviously differed. Did jesus fulfill a 1 donkey ride or a 2 donkey ride?



John in 12:14-5 says simply However, matthew read the prophecy differently and sees it as 2 seperate animals the king is to ride on at the same time.

Prophesy fufilled... even mistaken prophecies..

badger3k

From the new Skeptics circle, I found this blog post on prophecy (http://chiliasmchronicles.blogspot.c...-nonsense.html). He makes some good points.