FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Today at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-06-2007, 01:57 AM   #101
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: N/A
Posts: 4,370
Default

I'm trying to locate the papers of Giorgio Levi della Vida. I did get a message back from the university of Rome, and am asking around.

When I can next go to CUL I will look again at the Mingana catalogue and see what the other manuscript is and contains, and see about obtaining a copy of the second text which Cumont was told about.
Roger Pearse is offline  
Old 09-06-2007, 07:11 AM   #102
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: N/A
Posts: 4,370
Default

According to this site (from The Coptic Encyclopedia, vol. 1, 1991 ), the page on which the second quote appears is in Abuū al-Majd's Commentary on the Creed:

"Furthermore, the Mingana Syriac 481 (Western garshūnī, A.D. 1689, fols. 221v-25v) appears to contain a fragment of this commentary (d. cols. 586 and 889 of the Mingana catalog, Vol. 1)."

"At the article "he was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary," Abū al-Majdalūs' Commentary cites several messianic witnesses from among pagan philosophers: the Kitāb al-Asrār attributed to Plato (cf. Graf, Vol. 1, p. 486, sec. 3); the Kitāb al-'Ulūm al-'Ulwiyyah and the Letter to Alexander attributed to Aristotle (cf. Graf, Vol. 1, p. 485, sec. 4); the 'Ilm al-Tanjīm attributed to the philosopher Augustus (cf. Graf, Vol. I, pp. 485, sec. 3, and 486, sec. 4); and a text attributed to a certain Yūniyūn or Yūthiyūn, depending upon the manuscripts, as yet unidentified."

"Abū al-Majd's Commentary was published in 1940 by Constantine Bacha, in Volume 7 of Al-Risālah al-Mukhallisiiyyah in several issues, and reedited the same year in a small fascicule of thirty-five pages. "
Roger Pearse is offline  
Old 09-06-2007, 09:21 AM   #103
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: London, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,719
Default

My stab at the scribbles:

.... que ?eusement .......
sous figures dans les representations
mithraiques du banquet et qu.. (qu'on?)
etablis .
sans un(e?)
relation
mystique entre les
stoicheia
tou kos-
mou et
le ban-quet sa
cre' (e-accent aigu)

(For what it's worth )

So maybe something indicates a relation between elemenst of the cosmos (stoicheia=elements? I'm going by the French here) and the banquet of the creed???

BTW (I've lost track if this has been mentioned in the thread, you notice the quote similar to the one from the OP that the author provides from fo. 225 b, lines 17-20: "And Zarathustra the mage says, in the Book of the Elements of the World, to his disciples: He who eats my flesh and drinks of my blood lives in me and I live in him."

Gerard Stafleu
gstafleu is offline  
Old 09-06-2007, 10:41 AM   #104
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Birmingham UK
Posts: 4,876
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Pearse View Post
Interesting. Didn't Porphyry refute the authorship of some book ascribed to Zoroaster? It's not in Eunapius, tho, so I'm not sure how I know this.
See The Life of Plotinus by Porphyry http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/plotenn/enn001.htm
Quote:
Many Christians of this period--amongst them sectaries who had abandoned the old philosophy, men of the schools of Adelphius and Aquilinus--had possessed themselves of works by Alexander of Libya, by Philocomus, by Demostratus, and by Lydus, and exhibited also Revelations bearing the names of Zoroaster, Zostrianus, Nicotheus, Allogenes, Mesus, and others of that order. Thus they fooled many, themselves fooled first; Plato, according to them, had failed to penetrate into the depth of Intellectual Being.

Plotinus fequently attacked their position at the Conferences and finally wrote the treatise which I have headed Against the Gnostics: he left to us of the circle the task of examining what he himself passed over. Amelius proceeded as far as a fortieth treatise in refutation of the book of Zostrianus: I myself have shown on many counts that the Zoroastrian volume is spurious and modern, concocted by the sectaries in order to pretend that the doctrines they had embraced were those of the ancient sage.
Some of the works mentioned have been found at Nag Hammadi (eg Zostrianos) but not the one attributed to Zoroaster.

Andrew Criddle
andrewcriddle is offline  
Old 09-06-2007, 05:47 PM   #105
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Falls Creek, Oz.
Posts: 11,192
Default

Porphyry tells us of two series of books by two authors
concerning the history of Mithra. Taken from here

Quote:
Originally Posted by PORPHYRY
Eubulus, who wrote the history of Mithra, in a treatise consisting of many books. In this work he says, that the first and most learned class of the Magi neither eat nor slay any thing animated, but adhere to the ancient abstinence from animals. The second class use some animals indeed [for food], but do not slay any that are tame. Nor do those of the third class, similarly with other men, lay their hands on all animals. For the dogma with all of them which ranks as the first is this, that there is a transmigration of souls; and this they also appear to indicate in the mysteries of Mithra. For in these mysteries, obscurely signifying our having something in common with brutes, they are accustomed to call us by the names of different animals. Thus they denominate the males who participate in the same mysteries lions, but the females lionesses, and those who are ministrant to these rites crows. With respect to their fathers also, they adopt the same mode. For these are denominated by them eagles and hawks. And he who is initiated in the Leontic mysteries, is invested with all-various forms of animals; of which particulars, Pallas, in his treatise concerning Mithra, assigning the cause, says, that it is the common opinion that these things are to be referred to the circle of the zodiac, but that truly and accurately speaking, they obscurely signify something pertaining to human souls, which, according to the Persians, are invested with bodies of all-various forms
mountainman is offline  
Old 09-06-2007, 09:59 PM   #106
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: nowhere
Posts: 15,747
Default

Going back to my effort and combining with Gerard's...
Quote:
Originally Posted by gstafleu View Post
.... que precisement ces elements
sous figures dans les representations
mithriaques du banquet et qu'on
etablis-
sais un(e?)
relation
mystique entre les
stoicheia
tou kos-
mou et
le ban-quet sa
cre' (e-accent aigu)
The reference to stoicheia tou kosmou seems to be a reference to Paul, Gal 4:3.


spin
spin is offline  
Old 09-06-2007, 11:40 PM   #107
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: N/A
Posts: 4,370
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gstafleu View Post
My stab at the scribbles
Thanks!

Quote:
BTW (I've lost track if this has been mentioned in the thread, you notice the quote similar to the one from the OP that the author provides from fo. 225 b, lines 17-20: "And Zarathustra the mage says, in the Book of the Elements of the World, to his disciples: He who eats my flesh and drinks of my blood lives in me and I live in him."
Yes, this seems to originate from an Arabic Commentary on the Creed, which in turn exists in several manuscripts.

We're not getting any closer to Zoroastrianism with any of this, still less to Mithras; at the moment we're still in Arabic-composed texts of the Middle Ages.

All the best,

Roger Pearse
Roger Pearse is offline  
Old 09-07-2007, 09:59 AM   #108
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Birmingham UK
Posts: 4,876
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Pearse View Post
According to this site (from The Coptic Encyclopedia, vol. 1, 1991 ), the page on which the second quote appears is in Abuū al-Majd's Commentary on the Creed:

"Furthermore, the Mingana Syriac 481 (Western garshūnī, A.D. 1689, fols. 221v-25v) appears to contain a fragment of this commentary (d. cols. 586 and 889 of the Mingana catalog, Vol. 1)."

"At the article "he was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary," Abū al-Majdalūs' Commentary cites several messianic witnesses from among pagan philosophers: the Kitāb al-Asrār attributed to Plato (cf. Graf, Vol. 1, p. 486, sec. 3); the Kitāb al-'Ulūm al-'Ulwiyyah and the Letter to Alexander attributed to Aristotle (cf. Graf, Vol. 1, p. 485, sec. 4); the 'Ilm al-Tanjīm attributed to the philosopher Augustus (cf. Graf, Vol. I, pp. 485, sec. 3, and 486, sec. 4); and a text attributed to a certain Yūniyūn or Yūthiyūn, depending upon the manuscripts, as yet unidentified."

"Abū al-Majd's Commentary was published in 1940 by Constantine Bacha, in Volume 7 of Al-Risālah al-Mukhallisiiyyah in several issues, and reedited the same year in a small fascicule of thirty-five pages. "
IIUC the web article distinguishes the commentary of Abu al-Majd and that of Abu al-Majdalus.

The commentary with the pagan quotes which is probably found in Mingana 481 is that of Abu al-Majdalus

The Commentary published in 1940 is that of Abu al-Majd. IIUC the commentary of al-Majdalus has not been published.

Andrew Criddle
andrewcriddle is offline  
Old 09-07-2007, 12:17 PM   #109
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: N/A
Posts: 4,370
Default

It is a bit confusing, that article, isn't it? I had read this bit the other way around. The publication was in Arabic so doesn't take us further forward anyway.

I need someone who can read Christian Arabic. Perhaps we need some copts. In fact I think I know someone interested in Syriac who might know some, having converted to the Coptic orthodox church.
Roger Pearse is offline  
Old 09-07-2007, 07:06 PM   #110
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Massachusetts, USA -- Let's Go Red Sox!
Posts: 1,500
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Pearse View Post
When I can next go to CUL I will look again at the Mingana catalogue and see what the other manuscript is and contains, and see about obtaining a copy of the second text which Cumont was told about.
While you're there (and assuming they have it), would you mind looking up CIL 6.736?

I sent off a request for the text of the inscription to the Boston Athenaeum, but it doesn't appear as if i'm going to get a response.
God Fearing Atheist is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 09:35 PM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.