Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 05-01-2010, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Quote:

Originally Posted by darstec

How can there be multiple attestation when nobody wrote during Joshua's supposed lifetime? Hell, there isn't even a single attestation. There is no evidence that anything in the NT was written in the first century. There is not one single document on a Joshua the oiled one nor a movement started by him that has been radiocarbon dated prior to the third century, and probably not even that early.

Well, there's Philo writing that the Logos is the first-born of god the father :constern01: I think it's quite possible that Philo inadvertently created Christianity.

And what about David?

David was the Christ of God.

2Sa 23:1 -

Quote:

Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel...

darstec · 05-03-2010, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by darstec

How can there be multiple attestation when nobody wrote during Joshua's supposed lifetime? Hell, there isn't even a single attestation. There is no evidence that anything in the NT was written in the first century. There is not one single document on a Joshua the oiled one nor a movement started by him that has been radiocarbon dated prior to the third century, and probably not even that early.

Just out of interest do you accept the authenticity of the references to Christians in the letters of Pliny to Trajan ?

I know that these letters are 2nd century CE (c 112 CE) but the Christian movement involved is presented as going back a number of years before that time.

Andrew Criddle

A somewhat mad sect of Hellenistic Jews who bathed themselves with hallucinogenic oils? Yes. Somebody could have mentioned them. But who they were and what they believed, we don't know. Christianity as in some followers of a Joshua the oiled one? No.

I suspect any early references to Christianity (such a widespread belief as claimed) are bogus, because nobody who should have written about it did. What is the earliest copy of Pliny that we have? Is it less than a thousand years removed from his lifetime? Can we demonstrate that some copies were never in the hands of Christians from that early copy all the way back to its original copying? Why do people say they are second century when that cannot be established? We may be able to establish Pliny lived in the second century CE but not that all of those writings attributed to him arrived intact to modern times unchanged.

Nary a word of Joshua or Christianity has turned up at Pompeii or Herculaneum. That in and of itself is suspicious although we have only begun to process those lumps of ashes that were once documents. You do know that scientists now have a process to turn those lumps of ash and lava back into documents again, don't you?

ramoss · 05-05-2010, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darstec

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Just out of interest do you accept the authenticity of the references to Christians in the letters of Pliny to Trajan ?

I know that these letters are 2nd century CE (c 112 CE) but the Christian movement involved is presented as going back a number of years before that time.

Andrew Criddle

A somewhat mad sect of Hellenistic Jews who bathed themselves with hallucinogenic oils? Yes. Somebody could have mentioned them. But who they were and what they believed, we don't know. Christianity as in some followers of a Joshua the oiled one? No.

I suspect any early references to Christianity (such a widespread belief as claimed) are bogus, because nobody who should have written about it did. What is the earliest copy of Pliny that we have? Is it less than a thousand years removed from his lifetime? Can we demonstrate that some copies were never in the hands of Christians from that early copy all the way back to its original copying? Why do people say they are second century when that cannot be established? We may be able to establish Pliny lived in the second century CE but not that all of those writings attributed to him arrived intact to modern times unchanged.

Nary a word of Joshua or Christianity has turned up at Pompeii or Herculaneum. That in and of itself is suspicious although we have only begun to process those lumps of ashes that were once documents. You do know that scientists now have a process to turn those lumps of ash and lava back into documents again, don't you?

Actually, it isn't 'lumps of ash and lava', it is being able to take the documents that are preserved because of low oxygen , but charred. they basically filter the text under different types of lights to enhance the image, and then they are able to take photos of the words. It is a very laborious process.

It would be great of they found Pliny the elder's History of the German Wars. That is feasible, since Pliny the Elder died during the eruption of Vesuvius.

spin · 05-05-2010, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ramoss

It would be great of they found Pliny the elder's History of the German Wars. That is feasible, since Pliny the Elder died during the eruption of Vesuvius.

He had actually just been on a boat at the time, iirc. He crossed the bay of Naples to get a better look at the eruption eventually stopping at Stabiae, but the trip seems to been too much for him, dying there. It was theorized that he had inhaled something earlier from the eruption, but nobody else on the boat suffered the same fate so that is an improbable cause of death. Whatever the case, any papers he had were back on the north side of the bay.

spin

AdamWho · 05-05-2010, 09:25 AM

It all goes back to Dennet's "belief in belief." That is, people think it is a good thing to believe in the god and the bible so they say they believe even if they really don't.

I suspect that most people don't actually believe in god as demonstrated by their actions and other beliefs; they believe in belief. So pointing out the errors in the bible is really irrelevant.

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05-05-2010, 09:25 AM	#95
AdamWho Contributor Join Date: May 2001 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 13,389	It all goes back to Dennet's "belief in belief." That is, people think it is a good thing to believe in the god and the bible so they say they believe even if they really don't. I suspect that most people don't actually believe in god as demonstrated by their actions and other beliefs; they believe in belief. So pointing out the errors in the bible is really irrelevant.

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