Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 09-09-2010, 04:42 PM

A writer called Sulpitius Severus is claimed to have written two books called "Sacred Histories" dated at the start of the 5th century.

In his second book, Severus wrote about the FIRE in Rome when NERO was Emperor.

But, it is most interesting to note that Severus' narrative is very similar to the narrative found in Annals 15 by Tacitus but the part of the passage with "Christus" is missing.

Examine book 2 of "Sacred Histories" Chapter 29.

Quote:

....... it happened that Rome was destroyed by fire, while Nero was stationed at Antium.

But the opinion of all cast the odium of causing the fire upon the emperor, and he was believed in this way to have sought for the glory of building a new city.

And in fact, Nero could not by any means he tried escape from the charge that the fire had been caused by his orders.

He therefore turned the accusation against the Christians, and the most cruel tortures were accordingly inflicted upon the innocent.

Nay, even new kinds of death were invented, so that, being covered in the skins of wild beasts, they perished by being devoured by dogs, while many were crucified or slain by fire, and not a few were set apart for this purpose, that, when the day came to a close, they should be consumed to serve for light during the night.[

It will be noticed that Severus' start and end of his narrative is almost identical except for the middle or the part with "Christus".

Tacitus wrote at the beginning of the 2nd century.

Tacitus' Annals 15

Quote:

....
But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order.

Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace.

Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.

Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.

Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths.

Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.

So, Severus appears NOT be AWARE of a passage written by Tacitus or about Nero and the fire at Rome, even up to the start of the 5th century, that mentioned Jesus.

Eusebius did NOT use Annals 15 to prove that Jesus did EXIST, he used the forgery in Antiquities of the Jews 18.3.3.

Upto the beginning of the 5th century Annals 15 was NOT yet interpolated.

This is the interpolation or forgery.

Quote:

Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.

mountainman · 09-09-2010, 06:05 PM

The Witnesses to the Historicity of Jesus by Arthur Drews, translated by Joseph McCabe (Part 2 ←The Roman Witnesses, Section 2 - Tacitus)

Quote:

Arguments for the Genuineness.

There can, of course, be no question of any impossibility of interpolating the passage in the Annals
on the ground of “the inimitable style of Tacitus,” as defenders of the genuineness repeat after Gibbon.

...[,,,]...

Arguments against the Genuineness.

(a) General Observations.—As regards the passage in Tacitus, the simple credulity with which it had hitherto been accepted led to a sceptical attitude, not only abroad, where the Frenchman Hochart,[40] the Dutchman Pierson,[41] the English author of Antiqua Mater, Edwin Johnson, the American William Benjamin Smith in Ecce Deus (1911), and others assailed its genuineness, but also in German science.

aa5874 · 09-09-2010, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

The Witnesses to the Historicity of Jesus by Arthur Drews, translated by Joseph McCabe (Part 2 ←The Roman Witnesses, Section 2 - Tacitus)

Quote:

Arguments for the Genuineness.

There can, of course, be no question of any impossibility of interpolating the passage in the Annals
on the ground of “the inimitable style of Tacitus,” as defenders of the genuineness repeat after Gibbon.

...[,,,]...

Arguments against the Genuineness.

(a) General Observations.—As regards the passage in Tacitus, the simple credulity with which it had hitherto been accepted led to a sceptical attitude, not only abroad, where the Frenchman Hochart,[40] the Dutchman Pierson,[41] the English author of Antiqua Mater, Edwin Johnson, the American William Benjamin Smith in Ecce Deus (1911), and others assailed its genuineness, but also in German science.

First of all the name "Jesus" is NOT in Tacitus' Annals 15 and No church writer, NOT even the "historian of the Church", Eusebius, used Annals 15 to prove Jesus did exist.

Eusebius used the forgery in "Antiquities of the Jews 18.3.3.

It is just NOT conceivable that Church writers would have KNOWN that there were historical records of Jesus in Tacitus' Annals 15 and simply FORGOT to use it for hundreds of years.

Surely once Annals 15 was available to "Tertullian" when he wrote "Against Marcion" then he would have EASILY destroyed Marcion's phantom Jesus.

But, Tertullian was AWARE of Tacitus.

And this is what "Tertullian" wrote about Tacitus in "Apology" 16.

Quote:

For, like some others, you are under the delusion that our god is an ass's head.

Cornelius Tacitus first put this notion into people's minds......

mountainman · 09-15-2010, 04:24 AM

From www.jesusneverexisted.com

Quote:

No Christian apologist for centuries ever quoted the passage of Tacitus – not in fact, until it had appeared almost word-for-word in the writings of Sulpicius Severus, in the early fifth century, where it is mixed in with other myths. Sulpicius's contemporaries credited him with a skill in the 'antique' hand. He put it to good use and fantasy was his forte: his Life of St. Martin is replete with numerous 'miracles', including raising of the dead and personal appearances by Jesus and Satan.

His dastardly story of Nero was embellished during the Renaissance into a fantastic fable with Nero 'fiddling while Rome burned'. Nero took advantage of the destruction to build his 'Golden House' though no serious scholar believes anymore that he started the fire (we now know Nero was in his hometown of Antium – Anzio – when the blaze started.) Indeed, Nero opened his palace garden for temporary shelter to those made homeless.

In short, the passage in Tacitus is a fraud and adds no evidence for a historic Jesus.

Quote:

Ultraviolet photo of a critical word from the earliest known extant manuscript of Tacitus (second Medicean, Laurentian library, Italy).

The photograph reveals that the word purportedly used by Tacitus in Annals 15.44, chrestianos ("the good"), has been overwritten as christianos ("the Christians") by a later hand, a deceit which explains the excessive space between the letters and the exaggerated "dot" (dash) above the new "i". The entire "torched Christians" passage of Tacitus is not only fake, it has been repeatedly "worked over" by fraudsters to improve its value as evidence for the Jesus myth.

aa5874 · 09-15-2010, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

From www.jesusneverexisted.com

Quote:

No Christian apologist for centuries ever quoted the passage of Tacitus – not in fact, until it had appeared almost word-for-word in the writings of Sulpicius Severus, in the early fifth century, where it is mixed in with other myths. Sulpicius's contemporaries credited him with a skill in the 'antique' hand. He put it to good use and fantasy was his forte: his Life of St. Martin is replete with numerous 'miracles', including raising of the dead and personal appearances by Jesus and Satan.

His dastardly story of Nero was embellished during the Renaissance into a fantastic fable with Nero 'fiddling while Rome burned'. Nero took advantage of the destruction to build his 'Golden House' though no serious scholar believes anymore that he started the fire (we now know Nero was in his hometown of Antium – Anzio – when the blaze started.) Indeed, Nero opened his palace garden for temporary shelter to those made homeless.

In short, the passage in Tacitus is a fraud and adds no evidence for a historic Jesus.

Quote:

Ultraviolet photo of a critical word from the earliest known extant manuscript of Tacitus (second Medicean, Laurentian library, Italy).

The photograph reveals that the word purportedly used by Tacitus in Annals 15.44, chrestianos ("the good"), has been overwritten as christianos ("the Christians") by a later hand, a deceit which explains the excessive space between the letters and the exaggerated "dot" (dash) above the new "i". The entire "torched Christians" passage of Tacitus is not only fake, it has been repeatedly "worked over" by fraudsters to improve its value as evidence for the Jesus myth.

It should be NOTED that the word-for-word copying by Sulpitius Severus of Annals 15.44 confirms or tends to confirm that the at least the following words were NOT originally in the passage.

Quote:

Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.

That is the forgery in Tacitus' Annals 15 not found in Sacred Histories 2 written around the beginning of the 5th century.

Who was the first to claim Tacitus Annals 15.44 had information about Christus? The answer may be a clue to who actually carried out the forgery.

GakuseiDon · 09-15-2010, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

It will be noticed that Severus' start and end of his narrative is almost identical except for the middle or the part with "Christus".

Tacitus wrote at the beginning of the 2nd century.

Tacitus' Annals 15

So, Severus appears NOT be AWARE of a passage written by Tacitus or about Nero and the fire at Rome, even up to the start of the 5th century, that mentioned Jesus.

I'm probably going to regret this, but I'll bite: Why would a 5th Century Christian writer include Tacitus' words about Christ dying under Pilate in his history?

Ferryman to the Dead · 09-15-2010, 03:49 PM

Passage refers to the sect of Christianity, not Jesus Christ. Jesus only mentioned by Christians to claim he was their founder.

aa5874 · 09-15-2010, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

It will be noticed that Severus' start and end of his narrative is almost identical except for the middle or the part with "Christus".

Tacitus wrote at the beginning of the 2nd century.

Tacitus' Annals 15

So, Severus appears NOT be AWARE of a passage written by Tacitus or about Nero and the fire at Rome, even up to the start of the 5th century, that mentioned Jesus.

I'm probably going to regret this, but I'll bite: Why would a 5th Century Christian writer include Tacitus' words about Christ dying under Pilate in his history?

One needs TEETH to bite.

Do you understand what is meant by "Sacred History"? What do you think books called "Sacred History" would contain?

Sulpitius Severus will answer you.

Sink your "teeth" into this. You won't regret.

"Sacred History" 1

Quote:

I address myself to give a condensed account of those things which are set forth in the sacred Scriptures from the beginning of the world and to tell of them, with distinction of dates and according to their importance, down to period within our own remembrance.

Many who were anxious to become acquainted with divine things by means of a compendious treatise, have eagerly entreated me to undertake this work.

I, seeking to carry out their wish, have not spared my labor, and have thus succeeded in comprising in two short books things which elsewhere filled many volumes.

At the same time, in studying brevity, I have omitted hardly any of the facts.

Moreover, it seemed to me not out of place that, after I had run through the sacred history down to the crucifixion of Christ, and the doings of the Apostles, I should add an account of events which subsequently took place.....

GakuseiDon · 09-15-2010, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

I'm probably going to regret this, but I'll bite: Why would a 5th Century Christian writer include Tacitus' words about Christ dying under Pilate in his history?

One needs TEETH to bite.

:notworthy:

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Do you understand what is meant by "Sacred History"? What do you think books called "Sacred History" would contain?

Sulpitius Severus will answer you.

Sink your "teeth" into this. You won't regret.

Funny man! :lol:

aa5874 · 09-15-2010, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

One needs TEETH to bite.

:notworthy:

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Do you understand what is meant by "Sacred History"? What do you think books called "Sacred History" would contain?

Sulpitius Severus will answer you.

Sink your "teeth" into this. You won't regret.

Funny man! :lol:

Why do people with FALSE TEETH like to smile and Laugh?

To show off their dentures, I suppose?

But, this may make you show some more "dentures".

Sulpitius Severus in Sacred History 2.37

Quote:

....And Helena, the mother of the emperor Constantine (who reigned along with her son as Augusta), having a strong desire to behold Jerusalem, cast down the idols and the temples which were found there; and in course of time, through the exercise of her royal powers, she erected churches on the site of the Lord's passion, resurrection, and ascension.

It is a remarkable fact that the spot on which the divine footprints had last been left when the Lord was carried up in a cloud to heaven, could not be joined by a pavement with the remaining part of the street.

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09-15-2010, 03:49 PM	#7
Ferryman to the Dead Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Southern US Posts: 51	Passage refers to the sect of Christianity, not Jesus Christ. Jesus only mentioned by Christians to claim he was their founder.

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