Starboy

I guess it all depends on what you mean by practicing something. Use your common sense. If this country had a majority of Muslims instead of Christians and you were a Christian how would you want the Muslims to behave to respect your religion? Would you want them putting pictures and saying of Allah on your currency? Would you want the pledge to include "Allah Ackbar"? Would you want advocates of Allah constantly accosting your family and you trying to convert you to Islam? Wouldn't you want them to follow the constitution and respect the separation of Church and state? If practicing your religion means that you do not respect the constitution and the rights of others then I advocate that you not be allowed to practice your religion, not as a matter of me being atheist but as a matter of law and the constitution! If you can't do that then you are no patriot and do not deserve to call yourself an American.

Starboy

Haran

First, I'd like to say I'm sorry that you lost relatives to unreasonable and cruel people using religion. I cannot begin to imagine.

I would like to say, however, that this reinforces my belief that for many atheists, past experiences with "religious" people have greatly influenced their views of religion.

I feel sorry for the experiences you have had with people of religion and I can understand now where many of what I feel to be your harsh comments are coming from.

I wish, however, that you might also see my viewpoint on religion and religious people as a theist growing up surrounded by religious fundamentalists in a small town. I grew up with wonderful religous parents who cared very much for me and my sibling. Hugs, 'love yous', God, and prayer were a part of an almost daily routine. The people in my church were mostly wonderful people that would really help anyone in need, not just those in the church itself. I can testify that they were giving and caring people - even though fundamentalist (which seems to have become a bad word these days).

Now, my experience with athiests was that of people who strayed from the church or some who were never involved in church. Many times (not in all cases), they were the town drunks or druggies. Some were violent, obscene, and or cruel. Nonetheless, if they needed help, they were not denied by the people of religion in our town (can't say for sure in all cases, but in most that I remember).

Our experiences, therefore, in life are quite different and have strongly influenced our own perceptions of religion and its worth. I'm sure the same would go for many others here.

brighid

I am also sorry you lost anyone to such violence.

I would venture a guess and say I wonder how different things would have been if violence was not met with further violence as a matter of vengence. No doubt people on the other side of the guns have lost loved ones as well for the same reason you lost yours.

I would hope you would be able to see through your anger (and a rightfully earned emotion) to a more logical position. Violence begets violence and hostility and malice never difuses a situation, but adds fuel to the fire.

We cannot forcibly change others, and there will always be stupid people who harm others for ideological nonesense. It is never right. I understand the need for self-protection, but the gang mentality of retribution has an abysmal record of abject failure.

Brighid

Starboy

<insult deleted -liv> Substitute, blacks, chicanos or any other racial or derogatory term for atheist and your comments have an awful familiarity to them. No wonder fundamentalist get such a bad wrap. They deserve it! I read something like this and it makes me want to say Christians suck!

Starboy

livius drusus

How do you know they were atheists? Not going to church in no way requires atheism. What it sounds like to me is that the fundamentalist theology you were raised in casts all outsiders as "atheists" regardless of the actual facts of their belief systems.

Starboy

If only it were just that. It raises its followers to view with contempt those that are not members of the church. From contempt hate is only a small step away.

Starboy

brighid

The irony of this statement is profound, and indeed correct.

Brighid

Starboy

You are absolutely right. I did not always feel this way about Christians, but a lifetime of exposure to the mind crud that is Christianity has done it. If they would keep it to themselves and really practiced what they preach then they wouldn't bother me. Fat chance they can do that. This is why proselytizing from a Christian is an act of aggression, the spread of a disease.

Starboy

Haran

In fact, some were admitedly so. This is why they left the church. Others made no bones about it. When in high school, the ones I knew who distanced themselves from God and church and called themselves atheists were much the same as I described. They drank to excess, did drugs to excess, listened to lirics of rock bands like Slayer. Of course I can't say for sure whether all these people I knew were atheists. Many said they were. However, the same can be said of the violence done in the name of religion. How do you know for sure that the people comitting the violence don't have reasons other than religion? How do you know for sure that they really believe in a God? They certainly don't believe in the God I grew up with...

Of course I know better than to say that all atheists act the way the ones I knew growing up and some of the ones I know today are representative of the whole. I'm simply saying that due to life experiences, it is no wonder that I view religion very positively whereas Biff views religion very negatively. Perhaps it's something within the people themselves that drives them to be cruel and unreasonable and not religion...

Anyway, livius, I just wanted to say that I have appreciated your comments to Starboy. I think they are on the mark. If he doesn't take them to heart, maybe others will.

Haran

Starboy, perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I'm not saying that all atheists are like the many I have known. Perhaps you are a good person... I had a boss who was an atheist and was always doing little favors for people and was a very nice and helpful person.

What I was trying to say was that our experiences color our views. I had incredibly good experiences with religion. From my experiences, why would I want to give it up when I have seen the good it has brought to others in its name? On the other hand, Biff has had quite the opposite and unfortunate experience with religion and quite understandably views it negatively. The same could be said of our experiences with atheism. My experiences with expressed atheists have generally not been good. Biff's experiences with atheists may have been good.

Perhaps it has more to do with people and less with religion (at least that's what I see).