Chaucer

There are a tiny, tiny group of sayings that three relatively early textual traditions seem to have in common (of which more anon). Of course, we can always disqualify any kind of response along these lines and tell the benighted poster who dares make some start at addressing this that he's the lowest of the low, that the sacred writings of Wells, Price, Doherty et al have showed us once and for all that the New Facts are the sacred New Facts, and how dare we question the new myther dispensation -- YAWN!

But the fact is that ChristMyth has dared to bring up here the topic of "what Jesus was supposed to have said." Now we can either disallow any scholarly exchange on this topic altogether -- in which case let's just remove this damn thread now so it no longer hangs out here as a trap for apostate historicists -- or we can make some honest attempt to discuss the various ways by which one MIGHT attempt to gain a foothold on whatever was first attributed to this Jesus fellow, regardless of whether or not he was historic or a fiction.

I know damn well that lofty and infinitely predictable and borg-like tape loops will erupt in response here saying "HOW DARE YOU IGNORE THE PLAIN NEW FACTS THAT JESUS IS JUST A FIGMENT OF PAUL'S FEVERED BRAIN, AND THIS DISCUSSION IS POINTLESS BECAUSE THERE WAS NO JESUS, AND I WILL BEAT YOU INTO DROPPING THE MAIN TOPIC". Well, evidently, going by that, if a person may possibly have not existed, that mussen sie -- HEIL HITLER -- automatically disallow any discussion of anything attributed to him. Right?

Well, WRONG! Pending a ruling from on high, we still have a perfect right to discuss the remarks attributed to a person of any kind, fictional or not, -- last I heard -- and if this discussion is to be disallowed, let it be disallowed by REMOVAL OF THIS THREAD and not by hecklers trying to detour a discussion whose OP is still standing right out there WAITING for more discussion.

Whatever Jesus was, even if Jesus is an it and not a he, certain sayings were still attributed to him for whatever reason. Among these sayings are a tiny number that appear in all three of the earliest textual traditions. Those earliest textual traditions APPEAR LIKELY to be (courtesy of MOST OF modern scholarship) Thomas, Q (extant in parallel passages in Matthew and Luke) and Mark. Within the four corners of these three traditions, only a tiny handful of sayings appear in all three of these. I provide them in the Luke readings for easy reference --


Luke 11
21 When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:
22 But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.

33 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light.

Luke 12
2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.

10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

Luke 13
18 Then said he, Unto what is the kingdom of God like? and whereunto shall I resemble it?
19 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his garden; and it grew, and was a tree; and the fowls of the air lodged in the branches of it.


30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Luke 19
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.


If Jesus existed at all, these are the things that he most likely said. I don't pretend to see any overarching theme in these sayings. Perhaps, others here might. (My regrets at our having to deal here with hard, concrete textual facts; I know that that can make some people very uncomfortable.)

Chaucer

No Robots

That's good work, Chaucer. Here's a suggestion: start with these sayings, and then see what you can do to discover an overarching theme by relating them to other sayings in the gospels, as well as in other literature.

aa5874

So, how do you know that if Jesus existed he would have said those things, and what would be the nature of his existence?

You must know by now, that it is entirely possible, that Jesus was deaf, dumb and blind until he died, if the nature of his existence was human.

Toto

Chaucer - Godwin's Law says you lose.

Get a grip, man. No one is forbidding anyone from supporting your point of view.

bacht

I just watched the "Da Vinci Code" with some friends. This was a reminder to me that the vast majority of people, both Christian and non-Christian, believe that there was some man Jesus behind the gospel stories (in this case the plot is about Mary Magdalene as his wife and mother of their child).

If Chaucer thinks there is some sort of MJ conspiracy taking over the world he is completely wrong. If there is any conspiracy it's to follow whatever beliefs make you feel good. Telling people there's no Santa Claus is not the way to become popular.

show_no_mercy

Chaucer is still under the impression that the entire online atheist community is represented by the 10 or so regulars who post at BC&H, a large percentage of those 10 members who have the gall to question the historicity of a man we know very little about outside of obviously theologically biased writings.

No Robots

The real problem with mythicism from an atheist perspective is that it tends to intrude itself wherever anyone tries to develop an atheist understanding of Christ and Christianity. It is a kind of noisy culture-jamming.

bacht

An "atheist understanding of Christ and Christianity"? Do you mean as a sociological phenomenon? If you take theism out of the New Testament there's nothing left (at least at the exoteric level, I know you prefer esoteric interpretation)

No Robots

Even just as a literary phenomenon. Look, as Chaucer points out, we can't even get a discussion about the sayings in the Gospels.

I disagree. There is a lot to discuss in there. What kind of a man would say, for example, that, to follow him, you must hate your family, your own life?

Toto

There is nothing preventing anyone from discussing the sayings in the Gospels. What do you want to say about them?