J-D

You don't believe that that is what it is. And we've already told you that we don't believe that that is what it is. So why do you insist on repeating it?

J-D

How so? Do you think it is possible to have a death without a life? How?

ETA: Sorry, I see that other posts have dealt with this point.As I discussed in an earlier post, in response to a different point, it depends on what you mean by 'historicised'. If you mean 'asserted a previously unevidenced historic existence', then only somebody who believes there never was such a person needs to find an answer to the question. What's yours? Who do you think first asserted the historic existence of Jesus? On the other hand, 'historicised' might mean 'attempted to extract and reconstruct a historic narrative from material compounded with religious myth'. In that sense, Jesus was first 'historicised' by relatively recent studies.

mountainman

IMO Eusebius under Constantine (c.312 CE) by means of:

* tendering fiction and a pseudo-ecclesiastical-history
* perversion of the patristic literature
* the support of absolute and supreme imperial power
* the council of Nicaea (Bullneck's Supremacy party)

It is notable that the first person to assert the NEGATIVE
historicity of Jesus was Arius of Alexandria, with effect from
c.317 CE (rise of the 'Arian controversy'), his words recorded
on the disclaimer clause of the Nicean Oath:

* there was a time when he was not
* before he was born he was not
* he was made out of nothing existing
* God’s Son is from another subsistence or substance
* he is subject to alteration or change,

OTOH aa5874 will point to some Eusebian profile called Iraeneus
from the second century, which according to aa5874, this very
real Iraeneus character must have some form of historicity which
is (surprisingly!) not questioned by aa5874.

J-D

A real death necessarily entails a real life. If the life is only fictitious, then the death is only fictitious too, but even a fictitious death necessarily entails a fictitious life. Even in fiction, it's only possible for somebody to die if that somebody was first alive (in fiction).

J-D

This Jimmy Hoffa. The unexplained disappearance of his body does not change the fact that he did really live.

J-D

It seems to me that the statement 'before he was born he was not' presupposes that he was born. Hence, it appears that Arius believed that Jesus did once exist.

How do you reconcile your account of the origin of Christianity with accounts of the adoption of Christianity as the official religion of Armenia in 301 under the rule of Tiridates the Great?

S.C.Carlson

If you want to "deal with the issues" with Jeffrey, you are going to have to know NT better than how one hazily remembers it from Sunday school.

Stephen

mountainman

* Before he was born (in Constantine's mind) he was not.
* There was time (before Constantine) when he was not.
* He was made out of nothing existing (He is a fiction)
* God’s Son is from another subsistence or substance (fictional)
* He is subject to alteration or change (as are the scriptures)

Who reports the Armenian conversion apart from Eusebius,
or one of his successors? I reconcile this account in the
same manner as I reconcile the purported (Eusebian) account
that the Zoroastrian Prophet Mani (under Shapur I) was indeed
"christian" and that there were "christian bishops" associated
with the prophet Mani. Such an account is fictitious IMO.

aa5874

Amaleq13, Jimmy Hoffa was born february 14, 1913 and disappeared July 30 1975 according to the site.

Now, Jesus was born.........his grandfather's name was......... and he disappeared........... according to the NT.

aa5874

I don't think so.