Kosh3

Its not exactly a new proof of gods non existence, but anyway:

I am always struck by the stunning material-centeredness of such objections. Namely they allow into consideration only one temporal frame of reference: our time. But where is the logical limitation on multiple time lines (heck we admit as much when we fanticize about other possible universes in science fiction!). Its a bit like saying because my house has a fridge, that it has the fridge, and therefore no other houses can have fridges.

The funny thing is that so many atheistic accounts of the universe are also 'proven' against by the same logic. If time is the only time and a result of the big bang, then there was no time for dimensions to collide before the big bang to account for it, or for a fluctuation in the space field vacuum to spring it forth.

Wads4

I would think you might be making a 'fallacy of composition' in extrapolating our internal states to the hypothetical "Creator of the Universe", although admittedly there are real problems in reconciling 'timelessness' with being a 'dynamic' creator.
aguy2[/QUOTE]

Could well be, though it is a fallacy I try to avoid (along with all the others), --though my extrapolation was only directed at a completely hypothetical god which of course I claim to be non-existent.

Stephen T-B

Since belief and unbelief are emotional responses to our environment and what we're told about it, the existence of gods can neither be proved nor disproved: in the atheist's mind they don't exist; in the theist's mind they do.

If it were proved that such a thing as a god existed, it would necessarilly have qualities which made it amenable to "proof", and these qualities could be established beyond all doubt. But the god that emerged would disappoint perhaps 99.9 per cent of the world's believers, or anyway, a significant proportion of them.
How readily, for instance, would the Jews and Muslims accept the Christian God? How readily would the Christians and Jews accept the Muslim God? How readily would Muslim, Jew or Christian accept the Hindu Gods?

Probably the only people who'd be able to accept the god which was proved to exist would be atheists,- since they are not committed to the worship of any particular deity. They'd merely accept this god's existence in the same way that they accept any other brute fact.

On the other hand, (and as things are) their attempts to disprove any particular god is as futile as are the attempts of that god's devotees to prove it's reality.

Gods, being at the very least supernatural entities, are by definition impossible to pin down.
Attempt to trap them within any parameters you like (in Draycomb's case, spacetime) and lo-and-behold - they've slithered through them and, as Agnostic Theist demonstrates, are thumbing their noses at you (figuratively speaking, of course).

The issue will never be resloved: as long as people need their gods, their gods will exist.

Nothing, perhaps, is as indestructible as a belief held by a person who cannot even begin to contemplate abandoning it.

Agnostic Theist

Probably the only people who'd be able to accept the god which was proved to exist would be atheists

Umm..agnostics, surely?

Agnostic Theist demonstrates, are thumbing their noses at you

I thought I demonstrated that Draygomb's Paradox was unsound.

Certainly I didn't mean for anyone to infer that I am thumbing my nose at them.

Draygomb

(Any notion of God worth mentioning)
TFC without Consciousness is just random/undirected power.
Consciousness without TFC is just another caused being like us of which there could be an infinite number of such beings.
Thus the minimum definition of God must be The Conscious First Cause (TCFC).
Change cannot precede time
Time and Change are interdependent by definition.
You can’t have one without the other.
Time starts at the beginning of the first change.
No Change can occur within a single moment of Time
This is proven within the proof.
Decision Making is Temporal by definition.
Yes, I assume TFC for God’s sake.

Time can only be infinite if TFC exists.
Infinite regression of Time has been shown to be bogus.
If TFC doesn’t exist then Time must necessarily loop around to start it’s self.
Thus time is finite and all moments of Time have always existed.
That which already exists can’t be created.
No Creation = No Creator.
So TFC must be assumed to even open the conversation of God.

“God” may be one of an infinite number of beings like we may some day become?
Such a being is unworthy of the Title of God.

Time doesn’t require Space/Matter.
A change of Thought works just fine.
But Space/Matter always exists in moments.
Thus S/M requires Time.
Note: S/M might exist only as a figment of our imagination.
Change is the difference between moments. Be they physical or mental.
Nothing changes within a moment.
So if all moments already exist then no ordering of things is possible.
Time is the amount of change between moments.
Time is also the order of occurrence of the moments.


? Did you forget to put in an argument?
My Paradox is a direct derivative of Aquinas's Cosmological Argument.
I’m even using his definition of God as TCFC.

TFC without Consciousness is just raw undirected power, Not God.
Proving that TFC can’t be conscious is how I proved God doesn’t exist.

If God Knows All Moments then All Moments must already exist.
If All Moments exist then there is nothing to create.

If you admit he doesn’t have Time to decide to create Time,
How do you conclude he has the Time to decide to create Change?

You’re right. If TFC isn’t able to Cause Change/Start Time then 1-D Time can’t exist and neither can God.
So it is a given of 1-D Time that TFC has the ability to Cause Change/Start Time.
It is not a given that TFC can Consciously Cause Change/Start Time.

The Difference which is Consciousness is the whole point of the proof.
TFC can accidentally Cause Change/Start Time.
God however must Consciously Cause Change/Start Time.

Basically the objections you make are:
God isn’t TFC/TFC doesn’t exist.
Consciousness doesn’t require Time.
Change is separate from Time.

The first leads to the conclusion God doesn’t exist.
The other 2 are refuted by definition.

aguy2

Draygomb,
I may have some problems with your analysis, but nonetheless it seems clear that we both agree that 'Time' is the most likely candidate for being the basic substrate of reality.

Most of the problems I see in your analysis revolve around what seems to be your presumption that the scanty collective knowledge we have available as to the nature and potential's of "time" is enough to make sweeping generalizations.

I would say that all science, with any confidence, can presently tell us about 'time' is that its passage is totally dependent on local conditions. This isn't much information to work with.

Are you contending this is a possibility that could occur naturally, or would such a thing (temporal looping) require volition?

Are you saying that these conditions are an inevitable consequences of any possible 'temporal looping'?
aguy2

modernPrimitive

Why would time be a necessity for Creation (whether an event or an ongoing phenomenon)? Once again, this theory is based on an anthropomorphic God.

aguy2

Events and ongoing physical processes are time dependent.

For example: We have have been calling 'time' the 4th dimension, but it can be shown that it must be at least the 2nd if not the 1st. If there is an initial one dimensional condition and if this condition is to change into a multi-dimensional state, then 'time' of necessity would have to be at least the 2nd dimension.
ago2

Oxymoron

All gods that I know of are anthropomorphic. Not a single creature other than humans has a concept of god... unless you know different?

If god can think or act - and there seems to be plenty of Biblical references to that - then that requires time. An ordering of events, otherwise god is either static and cannot think / act, or randomly chaotic. Take your pick.

Oh, I get it. "God moves in mysterious ways"... invent a deity, then when challenged about why it makes no sense, just Take The First

Draygomb

Looping Time (with TFC) is necessarily Natural.
If it was Caused in some way then TFC would exist.