Freethought & Rationalism Archive

semiopen · 01-29-2013, 06:21 PM

The passage is the ritual of the red heifer.

The red heifer was special and to claim that the passage is talking about soap making seems absurd.

There were only a few things in the bible that made one unclean, touching a dead human would make one unclean; touching a dead chimpanzee not so much.

Touching menstrual blood wasn't good, on the other hand one could fill a sandbox with shit and your kids could play in it all day without any problems.

premjan · 01-29-2013, 09:27 PM

Ritual cleanliness differs from actual uncleanliness.

Jaybees · 01-29-2013, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

The passage is the ritual of the red heifer.

The red heifer was special....

Isn't there a hullabaloo every week or so about a red heifer being born in Palestine? So far, they've all turned out be beige or puce or other inappropriate color. If I remember correcrtly the birth of a red heifer is supposed to mean the coming of the messiah. or seven deadly plagues, or some such thing.

outhouse · 01-29-2013, 11:02 PM

It all sounds like nonsense from wishful thinking and a over active imagination.

I wouldnt listen to such types

Toto · 01-30-2013, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaybees

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

The passage is the ritual of the red heifer.

The red heifer was special....

Isn't there a hullabaloo every week or so about a red heifer being born in Palestine? So far, they've all turned out be beige or puce or other inappropriate color. If I remember correcrtly the birth of a red heifer is supposed to mean the coming of the messiah. or seven deadly plagues, or some such thing.

Red_heifer

There is a joint effort by an evangelical Christian cattle breeder from the US and the Temple Institute in Israel to produce a red heifer as a prelude to building the Third Temple. A perfect red heifer is required for the sacrifice that is needed to purify the priesthood.

Building the Third Temple would probably lead to World War III.

semiopen · 01-30-2013, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by premjan

Ritual cleanliness differs from actual uncleanliness.

Yes, this makes the link in the OP so bizarre.

The writer (Denise?) goes on about soap. I can see Axulus having trouble in a debate, personally I wouldn't talk to someone that has such apparently idiotic views. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see what such a concept can be based on.

semiopen · 01-31-2013, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axulus

I'm having trouble finding any analysis of this from a non-Christian source. Does anyone know if this is an effective recipe and instructions for preventing spread of infection and disease? Even if it is, is there anything unusual or special about it, or is it merely knowledge that was common at this time?

I've looked at this a little. The best reference seems to be the movie

Fight_Club.

Quote:

Norton plays the unnamed protagonist, an "everyman" who is discontented with his white-collar job. He forms a "fight club" with soap maker Tyler Durden, played by Pitt, and becomes embroiled in a relationship with him and a dissolute woman, Marla Singer, played by Bonham Carter.

How to Make Soap pt.1 has the Fight Club scene embedded near the beginning.

The key ingredient is lye. This wasn't really explained by Denise in the OP link but some presumably smarter pseudo-Jews get into it here:

The Red Heifer

Quote:

In Numbers 19:9 we read that the ashes of the red heifer when mixed with water was used as “a purification for sin.” Interestingly, the main cleansing ingredient in soap is lye, which can be made by straining water through a bucket of ashes. To make the conventional soap with which we are all familiar, other ingredients are added to lye water such as animal or vegetable fat to give it a functional form, as well as perfumes
and skin conditioning agents and additional ingredients to make the soap to lather. Lye water by itself is a caustic cleaning agent that purifies and disinfects. What a beautiful picture the red heifer and its ashes are of
Yeshua’s blood that was shed on the cross to cleanse us from sin.

As the quote says, the similarity with soap making is the water and ashes which can produce lye. By itself, this won't produce soap.

Soapmaking#Traditional_soap_making

Quote:

The earliest recorded evidence of the production of soap-like materials dates back to around 2800 BC in ancient Babylon.[6] A formula for soap consisting of water, alkali, and cassia oil was written on a Babylonian clay tablet around 2200 BC.

Even if the Red Heifer was a soap making recipe, its not like ancient people hadn't already known this for over 2000 years before the passage was probably written. However, it is not a soap making recipe.

The last part of the pseudo-Jewish quote mentions Yoshke's blood cleansing us from sin. I think I mentioned this concept in a recent thread. This line of reasoning seems absurd to me because it requires us to believe that the only thing standing between ancient Judah and destruction was the regular slaughter of animals. I just can't fathom a rational person believing that.

Chili · 01-31-2013, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axulus

In a recent debate I was having with a Christian, they mentioned that God provided instructions in the Bible for soap making for purposes of hygine/sanitation, and they used it as an example of the knowledge that could have only come from a divine source at that time. Here is the reference they provided me:

//

Maybe so. My mother-in-law found a cake recipe in it. Not sure how or where but she was a Catholic and liked baking cakes.

temeraire · 01-31-2013, 12:31 PM

I'm lost as to where any notion of a soap recipe comes from.

Quote:

6 and the priest shall take cedarwood and hyssop and scarlet stuff, and cast them into the midst of the burning of the heifer.

They're burning a heifer - anything added to the pyre (especially highly combustible material) would burn off. Soap isn't made by burning.

Is this more sacred waffle?

Chili · 01-31-2013, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by temeraire

I'm lost as to where any notion of a soap recipe comes from.

Quote:

6 and the priest shall take cedarwood and hyssop and scarlet stuff, and cast them into the midst of the burning of the heifer.

They're burning a heifer - anything added to the pyre (especially highly combustible material) would burn off. Soap isn't made by burning.

Is this more sacred waffle?

No it is just us, we think that the ancients were stupid back then, burning fat heifers and all, in church maybe or next to the healing pool outside.

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01-29-2013, 06:21 PM	#11
semiopen Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Hillsborough, NJ Posts: 3,551	The passage is the ritual of the red heifer. The red heifer was special and to claim that the passage is talking about soap making seems absurd. There were only a few things in the bible that made one unclean, touching a dead human would make one unclean; touching a dead chimpanzee not so much. Touching menstrual blood wasn't good, on the other hand one could fill a sandbox with shit and your kids could play in it all day without any problems.

01-29-2013, 09:27 PM	#12
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	Ritual cleanliness differs from actual uncleanliness.

01-29-2013, 11:02 PM	#14
outhouse Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Auburn ca Posts: 4,269	It all sounds like nonsense from wishful thinking and a over active imagination. I wouldnt listen to such types

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