Derec

This is a nutshell description of a particular xian doctrine that, depending on the denomination, is called either "eternal security" or "perseverance of the saints." I have a really big problem with that doctrine and cannot see the appeal of it.

There are basically two ways to interpret this. First one is that anyone who ever got "saved" cannot lose their salvation even if they stop believing. This view, while providing "eternal security" is the minority view. It also would fill Heaven with many non-xians.

The other interpretation, far more popular, should be called "eternal insecurity" or "perseverance of true saints". It states that those who got saved, but stop believing, have never been truly saved. However, that puts every "saved" person in jeopardy! Since the fake saved state cannot be distingusiehd from true saved state neither by the individual nor by other people noone can know whether they are truly saved or not. And it gets better. A xian can be fake saved without ever stopping believing. It is sufficient that they might lose their faith at some point regardless whether or not they do.

UMoC

Heathen Dawn

My debate with Christians on OSAS yielded the following results:

http://www.exwitch.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5702

It’s another area where the inerrant Word of God leads to different beliefs.

jdlongmire

I'd say it is an instance of the errant mind of man...



how about this one...

http://gregscouch.homestead.com/file...alsecurity.htm

“They, whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.�? —Westminster Confession of Faith 17.1, drafted by the Westminster Assembly at the request of the British Parliament 1643-47

Heathen Dawn

So an inerrant Bible is not enough. Inerrant interpreters are also needed. Where is the guarantee of having them?

Get your dose of OSNAS arguments here:

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/cat1.htm

jdlongmire

where, indeed...

1 Thessalonians 5:21
Test everything. Hold on to the good.

...ultimately depends on your interpretation for yourself...and who you want standing with you at the judgement, I reckon...

oy...oy...oy

Heathen Dawn

Why? The good pastor Corner is backing up OSNAS with Scripture. He’s using God’s Word to show the validity of that doctrine.

Sure, you can back OSAS with Scripture too. This brings us back to my point that the Bible, even if it were inerrant, would be of no use without inerrant interpreters. At least the Catholic Church claims to have those—the Magisterium—but Protestants interpret the Bible individually, and the result is the thousands of denominations we see today.

doubtingthomas

I think the scriptures teach that no one can have their salvation taken from them, but people can in fact reject christianity and lose their salvation.

"4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame"
Hebrews 6:4-6

It's hard to argue with something so plain.

jdlongmire

...I have had some trouble reconciling my Reformed worldview to this statement, but I'll bet some Reformed guy has approached this before...so I should research this before I state it, but I would like to make the observation that the intended audience of this epistle is Hebrews, so the above scriptures would be particularly germaine to them, as opposed to Gentiles...

mrmoderate

Right is right and wrong is wrong. There are no set "get into heaven" tickets. Good people can turn bad and bad people may be with God while they are not acceptable to human society.

I try to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ as I can understand them from what is credited to Him from the bible. This does not mean that I believe that we understand everything that Jesus is credited to having said.

I do not believe that "heaven", for a lack of a better term, is a Christian only club. The New Testament teaches that everyone must go through Jesus to get into "heaven" or to "be with the Father". I believe this to be a spiritual function that asserts that Jesus, spiritually, has always existed and will always exist. In this case, all who have died before the physical Jesus walked the earth will still be spiritually able to "go through Jesus".

If a biblical passage makes no sense, I don't accept it at face value. It's like working a crossword puzzle where we get hung up on a word like "cross" by only thinking of it's noun variations only to find out later that it is being used as a verb.

To be "saved" seems to imply simply to be with God. By accepting the teachings of Jesus Christ and attempting to follow in His ways puts us on the right path, but is the bible the only way to know Jesus? I don't believe so. Is Jesus the only name in which the Christ is known? Again, I don't believe so.

First off, no one can know for certain if they are "saved". Salvation is a gift of God and only God can give it. Since we cannot "earn" salvation, we cannot know if we are indeed "saved".

On a personal level I believe I have been "saved" from the evil influences of earthly distractions. This has made my life better. I still have bad things happen to me and I still do wrong things but I have a focus that I can get back to when I go astray. I believe I have a relationship with God through Jesus Christ because of my acceptance of a spiritual creator. If nothing else, this helps me to go through life in a more focused manner. I believe if I ever lose that focus and deny my spiritual love for God I will be in danger of no longer being with God which would be the same as "no longer being saved".

It's only complicated when I have to think about it

TheFisherman

That whole "saved" thing is a way to identify those who admit to being "in" the group.

I was raised that way, yes I saved myself, but also saved myself again with an enlightened point of view.

I think it's funny. To get membership in their religion, they say "Get saved and have eternal salvation".... but when it starts to get too full, they bring out the "you must dedicate your life to _________. Getting into heaven takes a lot of work."

All that competition to prove that "I deserve it more than you!" Ask one of them about the poor, derelict beggar..... drunk, smelly, he managed to get into heaven... how do they feel about having such a person with the same "eternal life and a pair of wings"... it makes most of them uncomfortable. So they lie to themselves and say stuff like "But, in heaven, we will all be equal - it will be bliss."

If it's so easy to get into, why try that hard?

If on the otherhand, you have to work hard to get a "better heaven", doesn't that reinforce the class structure that exists here on terra-firma? So they struggle to improve their class standing or status, but only in another (after) life? (Isn't that another religion all together?)