Freethought & Rationalism Archive

judge · 06-24-2009, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

"he" and "him" most prominently distinquished in the name Jacob. Jacob became known as Israel. Israel the one "seed" as predistined to the promise.

The dead sea scrolls fragment quoted is itself quoting 2 samuel 7. The "seed" has therein morphed into Solomon, not Jacob!

Problem is, that the promises about a descendent, "seed" of David always being on the throne in Jerusalem failed, leaving us with further reinterpretation of the messainic prophecies by the time of the DSS (and Paul).

The "seed" has become an individual. Here is what the DSS fragment says

"He is the branch of David who will arise with the interpreter of the Law who 12 [ ] in Zi[on in the la]st days according as it is written

How can Jacob be the branch of David?

On the surface this seed in 2 Samuel 7 is Solomon, but by the time of the DSS this "seed" has become another messianic individual, who comes , not in Solomons time, but in the last days.

judge · 06-24-2009, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The argument seems a little contrived....

You know how much I hate to disagree with you, Toto

, but I do not think the argument here is a little contrived; it is totally contrived, and there is not one iota of a chance that either the original author of Genesis or its eventual LXX translators meant the singular seed to be applied to one single person. Seed is just an idiom meaning descendants.

Ben.

If we look at 2 samuel 7 we see that to the hebrew prophets seed was not just an idiom meaning descendents.

Quote:

" 'The LORD declares to you that the LORD himself will establish a house for you: 12 When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men. 15 But my love will never be taken away from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16 Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me ; your throne will be established forever.' "

Here the messainic seed, whose kingdom will be forever, is an individual. Or so it seems.

storytime · 06-24-2009, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

"he" and "him" most prominently distinquished in the name Jacob. Jacob became known as Israel. Israel the one "seed" as predistined to the promise.

The dead sea scrolls fragment quoted is itself quoting 2 samuel 7. The "seed" has therein morphed into Solomon, not Jacob!

Problem is, that the promises about a descendent, "seed" of David always being on the throne in Jerusalem failed, leaving us with further reinterpretation of the messainic prophecies by the time of the DSS (and Paul).

The "seed" has become an individual. Here is what the DSS fragment says

"He is the branch of David who will arise with the interpreter of the Law who 12 [ ] in Zi[on in the la]st days according as it is written

How can Jacob be the branch of David?

On the surface this seed in 2 Samuel 7 is Solomon, but by the time of the DSS this "seed" has become another messianic individual, who comes , not in Solomons time, but in the last days.

"How did the Lord say thus unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand til I make thy enemies thy footstool."

The seed was Jacob, called Lord and Prince.

How did God say to Jacob, Sit thou on my right hand til I make thy enemies thy footstool?

judge · 06-24-2009, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

"How did the Lord say thus unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand til I make thy enemies thy footstool."

I think you need to rephrase this making clear where your quotation marks begin and end.

Quote:

The seed was Jacob, called Lord and Prince.

But this is not the case in 2 samuel 7 where the seed is Solomon.

Quote:

How did God say to Jacob, Sit thou on my right hand til I make thy enemies thy footstool?

As far as I am aware god is never reputed to have said such a thing to jacob. What makes you think god did?

arnoldo · 06-25-2009, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

. . If we look at 2 samuel 7 we see that to the hebrew prophets seed was not just an idiom meaning descendents.

Quote:

" 'The LORD declares to you that the LORD himself will establish a house for you: 12 When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men. 15 But my love will never be taken away from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16 Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me ; your throne will be established forever.' "

Here the messainic seed, whose kingdom will be forever, is an individual. Or so it seems.

Isaiah 11:1-2 also seems to describe an individual, rather than a group of people. . .

storytime · 06-25-2009, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

"How did the Lord say thus unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand til I make thy enemies thy footstool."

I think you need to rephrase this making clear where your quotation marks begin and end.

But this is not the case in 2 samuel 7 where the seed is Solomon.

Quote:

How did God say to Jacob, Sit thou on my right hand til I make thy enemies thy footstool?

As far as I am aware god is never reputed to have said such a thing to jacob. What makes you think god did?

It's is confusing for sure. But remembering that Solomon was a tribal member of his father and thus counted as the seed, meaning Israel, would identify the one seed as being Israel. Not many seeds (many names) but one named identity, Jacob-Israel.

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