Deacon Doubtmonger

I was poking through Denver Public Library recently for books on debt counseling and bankruptcy, and found two written by xian fundies. Though most of their financial advice seems sound, yea, verily hath one jot of advice elevated my dander: Even though your creditors are snarling on your doorstep, you stand in the shadow of bankruptcy court, and your credit rating is about to spend 10 years in purgatory, God still has to get his cut -- and not just when you're better off, either ... Now! NOW! NOW!!!

(1) From Credit After Bankruptcy by Stephen Snyder (Indianapolis: Bellwether, 2000):

One of His instructions is the principle of giving God the first 10 percent of whatever you earn.... Let me tell you that ever since my wife and I put God first in our lives with money, everything changed. I would encourage you to do the same. Find a local church and plant your giving there. Be sure to give cheerfully, and base your giving on His promises, which you will find in the Bible.

OK ... I guess we should consider bankruptcy a holy act and turn its courts into xian churches, if we take the bible verses about giving away wealth at face value! The bible didn't forbid you to give it to bankruptcy trustees and creditors, did it?

(2) From Debt-Proof Your Marriage by Mary Hunt (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell, 2003), Chapter 13, "A Life-Changing Formula":

The correct sequence (for getting out of debt) is 10-10-80. You give first, you pay yourselves second, and with the 80 percent that remains, you pay your creditors and you live life to its fullest.... If you are like most people, you pay your bills and your creditors first, and if there's anything left -- which there is rarely -- you put some in savings and tell God, sorry, maybe next month....

Sounds like god's the one who should be filing for bankruptcy!

Ask God to increase your faith and your willingness to trust him. I want for you to start giving because I know how this is going to turn out. What this does to your relationship [marriage] and your financial situation is going to be amazing. I believe that giving exposes our financial situations to God's supernatural intervention.

I've been a public record paralegal for almost my entire working life and have done numerous bankruptcy searches; never once have I seen the docket entry, "DEBTS DISCHARGED BY ORDER OF GOD ON ___(date)___."

From Chapter 24, "A Call to Faithfulness":

One of the universal laws on money is that everything you own is on loan from God. "What do you have that God hasn't given you? And if all you have is from God, why act as though you are so great, as though you have accomplished something on your own?" (I Corinthians 4:7, TLB)

So god's the one who should have taken the payments on that Pontiac lemon! Dealer financing constitutes worship of a false god!

You don't have to worry about having enough money. God promises to supply all your needs if you will obey his laws and rules. You will have enough. That is a promise you can count on! "And my God will meet all your needs according to his glorious riches." (Philippians 4:19)

Which makes all the bible verses on such promises no more than a theological version of "the check's in the mail."

God uses finances to teach us to trust him to supply all of our needs. For most of us, money is the greatest test of all. He watches how we use money to see how trustworthy we are. "And if you are untrustworthy about worldly wealth, who will trust you with the true riches of heaven?" (Luke 16:11, TLB)

But (1) if he's omniscient, and created us flawed in the first place, why does he bother with debt hell as a test, knowing the outcome? (2) I thought heaven was supposed to be a place of unlimited, never-exhausted riches; how the frick does trust enter the picture in the complete absence of scarcity?

You can count on God to keep his promises. Now the question is, can he count on you to be faithful?

Yet another reason for me to shout, "NO!"

Deacon Doubtmonger

religion

P.S. Side note: Now I know why we're all here at IIDB! Snyder says:

The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is other Christians who say it with their mouths and deny it with their lifestyles.

Queen of Swords

One of His instructions is the principle of giving God the first 10 percent of whatever you earn....

I wouldn't make a very good omnipotent god, I'm afraid, because my response to a lack of cash would be to create some, not to tax my followers.

penumbra

There's a whole freaking herd of those types on the web. Here's just a couple:

http://www.good-steward.org/

http://www.debtfreechristian.org/

http://www.crown.org/

Rhaedas

On a side note:

I think the above is more correct. If no one prayed outside their churches and temples and didn't try to bring it into everyday life, and didn't try to make everyone submit to their beliefs, I'd still be an atheist, because the same lack of evidence would remain. But it's the fundamentalists who insist on ignoring the teachings to pray silently and not in public, and try to make everyone bow to their specific god that drives atheists to react against religion. Ironically, while atheists will argue at length as to why a theist's belief is incorrect, they will also be the first to jump in to protect that theist's right to believe it, so long as it doesn't interfere with others' beliefs as well.

Aravnah Ornan

I used to belong to a church that taught the same doctrine you quoted. The church taught Divine health and Divine prosperity and required tithing in that context. Oddly enough, much of the congregation was usually either sick or broke.

Valdemar

Of course, you should then be required to give 10 percent of your debt as well. Ten percent of a negative number is a negative number. For instance, I heard that Michael Jackson is 200 million dollars in debt. That would mean if he belonged to a church, that they owed him 20 million dollars!

I'll stop being an Atheist when I get in debt and then join a church. I can't wait to see how much money god gives me.

Valdemar

I have another problem with this. My wife's sister is a devout Christian, and she is adamant about tithing. I got into an argument with her about whether tithing should be done before or after taxes. This would amount to a significant amount of money depending on which way to go.

She argued that she earns X amount of dollars, and the bible commands her to remove X�.1 of that. However, I pointed out that she is ALWAYS obliged to pay the government, so she isn't really earning X. She's actually earning X-Y dollars. It isn't like paying the government is a choice, like paying off your car or something and THEN paying the church. She just couldn't see my reasoning and continued with the original formula.

Any thoughts from your Christians?

Ojuice5001

Um, familiar with the concept of inflation?

Seriously, though, this is one more proof that Yahweh is bound by the laws of scarcity, just like the rest of us.

penumbra

A fair number of years ago, I worked for a time in the mortgage industry, servicing delinquent loans. I wish I would have a kept a count of the number of people that lost their homes because their tithe came before their mortgage. They literally felt that they owed a debt to gawd that took priority over the mortgage. And they always told me that gawd would take of things for them if they just had enough faith.

Evicting them was often interesting, too. Never did see gawd or jebus show to stop the sheriff, though.

GeoTheo

Forgive me but I have a hard time believing this.
I don't doubt that you may have met born again Christians having foreclosures but I doubt it was caused by excessive tithing. Born again Christians get into to debt problems the same way everyone else does. Outgo outpaces income because they don't manage their money.