mountainman

If you believe Jerome when he states that the author of the Acts of Paul was judged and given his marching orders from the church in the presence of John the Apostle, then you'd believe anything.

stephan huller

One does not follow from the other.

stephan huller

Moderator please split off these comments. This thread is being hijacked. When is this fool going to be banned from this forum?

sotto voce

It's so convincing an argument that it has to be side-stepped.

Toto

Dura Europas has been cited to you before - a third century house church that was buried in a siege and only excavated in the 20th century, like a prehistoric bug preserved in amber - but you cover your virtual ears and go la la la I can't hear you.

tanya

I would sound a note of caution here: Toto, and I know from reading past forum transcripts, spin, think that the Dura Europos "house church" is a slam dunk.

I beg to differ.

The entire scenario, upon which this claim rests, is the idea that the ENTIRE city was buried, on orders of Shapur I, in 265 CE. Therefore, whatever had been excavated in 1920-1940, i.e. 1600+ years later, must represent an image preserved, like the bug in amber suggested by Toto.

I have a different hypothesis.

I think it likely, that the Byzantine Empire re-contested this urban center, Dura Europos, with the Sassanid Empire, in view of the central importance of the Euphrates River, in the middle of the fourth century, a hundred years, say, after the military defeat of the Roman soldiers by Shapur I. At that time, the Romans would have been in conflict, again, with the Persians, and would have again, partially excavated the city, and then, replaced the soil for defensive purposes once more, in another subsequent attack. This city's history, has been oversimplified for several generations. It is time for a more critical scrutiny of the evidence.....If it should turn out, that indeed the "house church" paintings, of new testament scenes, proves authentic, that still would not, at least in my mind, rule out, a fourth century painter/graffiti artist at this site.

For us, today, the place looks inhospitable, desolate, abandoned. For folks back then, this locale had been a critical crossroads, a thriving metropolis, contested for several hundred years, with various, significant changes in political rulers. I am unconvinced that the history of the city died, the day Shapur I's forces prevailed.....Soldiers at the time of Constantine, and his sons, succeeding him, could easily have known of the city's location, and made a determined effort to re-establish the metropolis.

la70119

Dura-Europos in Syria. Dated to 3RD CENTURY CE. They found a House Church and a Diatessaron there.

And I expect it AGAIN from this guy. I think he's hinged his whole "hypothesis" on ONE LINE in Julian's Against the Galileans, where Julian refers to Christianity "the fabrication of the Galileans". Even when you give Julian the benefit of the doubt as I do, mm STILL has the problem of a significant amount of evidence showing Christianity(ies) existing before 325 CE.

mountainman

Thanks for the expression of the difference of opinion tanya. There has been much discussion of the Dura evidence and not everyonein this forum goes along with Toto and spin (who discards his usual agnostic stance) that Dura represents the unambiguous presence of a christian community. Recent threads include Dura Europos split from Glen Beck and Dura Europos exhibit in Boston. Spin's old poll results, entitled Has mountainman's theory been falsified by the Dura evidence? demonstrates that opinion is not a complete consensus.


As evidenced in all these discussions, there is certain no consensus that Dura is certainly like a bug preserved in amber. Toto is misrepresenting public opinion. I am not going to rehash the arguments again - they have been discussed in the threads above, and my summary argument is that "it is not unambiguously PROVEN that the Dura "mural art" uses "christian motifs" (e.g. the influence of Mani the Healer instead of the NT "Healing of the Paralytic may have been substantial at Dura in the 3rd century) or that the diateserion fragment was not left behind by the Roman Army which Emperor Julian took through the city in the mid 4th century.

mountainman

Jerome and Augustine are not unquestionable sources. You may not be questioning the integrity of these corrupt 4th century heresiologists, but one may justifiably do so.

mountainman

I had investigated the hypothesis for 6 months before I read the reconstruction of Julian from Cyril's "Against Julian". Was Julian was just blowing the whistle on the destroyer of traditions, Constantine?



All of which I have examined and documented: none of it is unambiguously "christian".

My investigation reveals the possibility that Jesus could have walked out of Constantine's Little Red Codex.


Can you bring any new contrary evidence to the table?

Which is your favorite "silver bullet" evidence for the historical existence of pre-Nicaean christians - both of the canonical and non canonical variety?

There is more evidence for the Loch Ness monster than there is for pre-Nicaean christians.