Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 10-30-2009, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Sumner

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Sigh. For astrotheologists, this coincidence is enough evidence, especially given that there is no other explanation for the symbolic number of 12.

Then astrotheologists are misinformed. Sumerians divided the calendar into 12 lunar months long before the existence of the 12 signs of the Zodiac. If we're going to look for causality, the line's much clearer on that front.

...

What is the source for this?

divine 12

Quote:

The oldest preserved zodiac dates from 3000BCE when the Sumerians in Mesopotamia developed their Zodiac based on twelve heavenly bodies they could see, such as planets. Sumerian government always composed of twelve people.

ph2ter · 10-30-2009, 02:37 AM

I think that what majority of mythers in the area of Jesus studies miss is the broader picture of all Semitic and Indo-European mythologies. All the ancient mythologies comply the schema which originate from the common roots. If Jesus appears to them to be Horus-Osiris it is probably not because of borrowing from the Egyptian mythology, but because the Jewish culture and their Bible reflect the same mythological schema, which underlines every surrounding culture including the Jewish one. The Christians unearthed their religion primarily from the Bible and the Jewish culture. They picked from it what was in resonance with the neighboring cultures and that in first place included the common mythological motives and pictures.
The science of comparative mythology is not yet in a stage which can allow us to state the indisputable claims, but it will surely progress through time. It finds its ways which nobody before could predict. We are not aware how much of our worldview owe to mythology and ancient understanding. For example, the language and the words which we use for this communication comply the mythological concepts and stem from them.

Denying mythological motivation for the symbols present in almost every culture is like closing the eyes.

Rick Sumner · 10-30-2009, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The oldest preserved zodiac dates from 3000BCE when the Sumerians in Mesopotamia developed their Zodiac based on twelve heavenly bodies they could see, such as planets. Sumerian government always composed of twelve people.

I'd be interested in seeing a primary source for this. The earliest preserved lunar calendar dates to ~3000 BCE. The earliest zodiac, to my knowledge, is Babylonian and dates to ~1200 BCE.

It's my understanding that an earlier date is speculatively assigned based on linguistics and charting the movement of constellations. In other words, if we assume that the lunar calendar was based on the elliptic, and then trace the movement of the elliptic until it lines up, then it must be true.

Regards,
Rick Sumner

Rick Sumner · 10-30-2009, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ph2ter

The science of comparative mythology

The what now?

Solo · 10-31-2009, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

(p. 7) Suffice it to say that, apart from the imaginative but forced allusions to astral activity--Samson's hair as the rays of the sun, the donkey jawbone as lightning; Delilah as a lunar goddess--the evidence for solar ideas in the narrative is minimal. The "Samson"--"sun" connection, the instance where fire and images of heat are mentioned, and the general setting of the story in the vicinity of Beth Shemesh, "Temple of the Sun" (though this towm does not appear in the story), are hardly enough to justify reading the narrative as a solar myth.[/indent]

Beth Shemesh was located about two miles south from Zorah where Samson grew up (Judges 13:25). Beth Shemesh was believed to be a sun-worshipping centre.

source: Isaac Asimov's Guide to the Bible I.

Best,
Jiri

Dave31 · 10-31-2009, 02:44 PM

Great review by Dr. Price

In regards to the 12/twelve tribes if Israel and the zodiac we have Josephus and others discussing the "ephod." The quote below comes from a review by Acharya S/Murdock of Herb Cutners book, Jesus: God, Man or Myth?:

Quote:

"Fortunately, some individuals have braved the waters, including Dupuis, a dauntless soul whose work included an analysis of the motif of "The Twelve," which represent the signs of the Zodiac (as related by Cutner):

"These twelve Apostles were supposed to rule over the twelve tribes of Israel, and if the reader cares to take up his Bible and turn to Genesis, chapter 49, he will find an excellent description of the twelve sons of Jacob mostly in the very terms of the Zodiac.... (139)"

Cutner then lists all twelve tribes/sons and elaborates upon their zodiacal significance. This analysis is supported by the statements of both Josephus and the early Christian authority Clement of Alexandria, who, concerning the accoutrements of the Jewish priests, wrote:

"The bright emeralds upon the ephod [apron] signify the Sun and Moon; and the twelve precious stones arranged in four rows describe to us the Zodiacal circle relatively to the four seasons of the year." (141)"
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.co...odmanmyth.html

GakuseiDon, what is "jumping the shark" ... is that an Aussie figure of speak?

Deus Ex · 10-31-2009, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave31

GakuseiDon, what is "jumping the shark" ... is that an Aussie figure of speak?

Jumping the shark

Roland · 10-31-2009, 09:01 PM

Quote:

I seem to recall something about the 12 tribes being connected to the 12 sons of El.

I cannot remember where I read this.

I believe you may be thinking of Deut 32: 8-9 in which El is seen divying up the peoples of the earth amongst his sons, one of whom is Yahweh who gets the Israelites as his portion (of course, modern bibles don't translate it this way).

However, in this case, it wouldn't be the 12 tribes since all the Israelites went to Yahweh.

Solo · 11-01-2009, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Sumner

Quote:

Originally Posted by ph2ter

The science of comparative mythology

The what now?

I think that may be newspeak for methaphysico-theologo-cosmolonigology. :huh:

Jiri

Dave31 · 11-01-2009, 12:34 PM

Thanks Deus Ex - I remember when Fonzie jumped the shark. Ah the good ol' days.

Quote:

"...In the book of Job, traditionally considered one of the oldest texts in the Bible, we find God reiterated as the power behind the sun, as at 9:7, which refers to him "who commands the sun, and it does not rise; who seals up the stars..." Job contains other astronomical, astrological or astrotheological knowledge, as in the discussion of the "Mazzaroth" or Zodiac at 38:22:

"Can you lead forth the Maz'zaroth in their season, or can you guide the Bear with its children?"

Strong's Concordance (H4216) defines mazzaroth or mazzarah as "the 12 signs of the Zodiac and their 36 associated constellations." The "Bear with its children" refers to the constellation of Arcturus or Ursa Major and the three stars in its tail. (McClintock, 381)...."

http://www.stellarhousepublishing.co...unexcerpt.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc4rr...eature=related

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10-30-2009, 02:37 AM	#12
ph2ter Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Europe Posts: 219	I think that what majority of mythers in the area of Jesus studies miss is the broader picture of all Semitic and Indo-European mythologies. All the ancient mythologies comply the schema which originate from the common roots. If Jesus appears to them to be Horus-Osiris it is probably not because of borrowing from the Egyptian mythology, but because the Jewish culture and their Bible reflect the same mythological schema, which underlines every surrounding culture including the Jewish one. The Christians unearthed their religion primarily from the Bible and the Jewish culture. They picked from it what was in resonance with the neighboring cultures and that in first place included the common mythological motives and pictures. The science of comparative mythology is not yet in a stage which can allow us to state the indisputable claims, but it will surely progress through time. It finds its ways which nobody before could predict. We are not aware how much of our worldview owe to mythology and ancient understanding. For example, the language and the words which we use for this communication comply the mythological concepts and stem from them. Denying mythological motivation for the symbols present in almost every culture is like closing the eyes.

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