Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 10-18-2008, 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The original is here:Vivekananda: Experiences in the West

Quote:

The old man in the dream concluded his statement by saying: 'The truths and ideas preached by us were presented as the teachings of Jesus. But Jesus the person was never born. Various proofs attesting this fact will be brought to light when this place is dug up.' At that moment — it was midnight — the Swami awoke and asked a sailor where the ship was; he was told that it was fifty miles off Crete.

The Swami was startled at this singular coincidence. The idea flashed in his mind that the Acts of the Apostles might have been an older record than the Gospels, and that Buddhist thought, coming through the Therapeutae and the Essenes, might have helped in the formulation of Christianity. The person of Christ might be a later addition. He knew that Alexandria had been a meeting-place of Indian and Egyptian thought. Later, when the old sites in Crete were excavated, evidence was found connecting early Christianity with foreign sources.

I think that we are all still waiting for that archeological evidence from Crete showing that the historical Jesus never existed. What on earth is he writing about?

Dear Toto,

If I have interpetted the above correctly it appears to say that some sort of excavation has produced some artefacts. Do you happen to know what the artefacts from Crete, here being referred to are?

Best wishes,

Pete

Huon · 10-18-2008, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

How do we go about getting a listing of all codices known to have been or thought to have been published in the fourth century. Against each of these publications we make a note as to when the material was originally authored (as either a) in the 4th, b) in the 3rd, c) in the 2nd, d) in the 1st century CE or earlier).

Where is the logical error in this process?

Best wishes,

Pete

How do you know the date of the original authoring in the 4th, b) in the 3rd, c) in the 2nd, d) in the 1st century CE or earlier) ?

On a modern book, there are many indications of origin, date, name of the printer. On an ancient manuscript, usually nothing.

What is the date of the original authoring (as you say) of the Illiad ? Who was exactly the author ? Homer (?) born ? - dead ?

Toto · 10-18-2008, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The original is here:Vivekananda: Experiences in the West

...

I think that we are all still waiting for that archeological evidence from Crete showing that the historical Jesus never existed. What on earth is he writing about?

Dear Toto,

If I have interpetted the above correctly it appears to say that some sort of excavation has produced some artefacts. Do you happen to know what the artefacts from Crete, here being referred to are?

Best wishes,

Pete

I don't think that they exist, and there are no Bibical indications that Jesus or the disciples were on Crete. Crete is noted for archeological finds regarding Minoan civilization. I think that Vivekananda was living inside his own head, and you should stop using that quote.

mountainman · 10-18-2008, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

If I have interpetted the above correctly it appears to say that some sort of excavation has produced some artefacts. Do you happen to know what the artefacts from Crete, here being referred to are?

I don't think that they exist, and there are no Bibical indications that Jesus or the disciples were on Crete.

Dear Toto,

Although I seriously question that we should be influenced by these things you are referring to as Bibical indications, I agree with that statement. However, as both of us are aware of how ubiquitous early christian churches and bishops and saints were, we should not be surprised that Saint Titus makes an appearance on Crete:

Quote:

Originally Posted by WIKI

In the Christian New Testament, Saint Titus, (a common Roman first name) was a companion of Paul of Tarsus, mentioned in several of Paul's epistles, including the Epistle to Titus. Titus was with Paul and Barnabas at Antioch and accompanied them to the Council of Jerusalem,[1] although his name nowhere occurs in the Acts of the Apostles.

He appears to have been a Gentile – for St. Paul sternly refused to have him circumcised, because Paul believed Christ's gospel freed believers from the requirements of the Mosaic Law – and to have been chiefly engaged in ministering to Gentiles. At a later period, Paul's Epistles place him with St. Paul and Timothy at Ephesus, whence he was sent by Paul to Corinth for the purpose of getting the contributions of the church there in behalf of the poor Christians at Jerusalem sent forward.[2] He rejoined the apostle when he was in Macedonia, and cheered him with the tidings he brought from Corinth.[3] After this his name is not mentioned till after Paul's first imprisonment, when we find him engaged in the organization of the church in Crete, where the apostle had left him for this purpose.[4] The last notice of him is in 2 Timothy 4:10, where he appears with Paul at Rome during his second imprisonment. From Rome he was sent into Dalmatia, no doubt on some important missionary errand. The New Testament does not record his death.

According to church tradition, Paul ordained Titus Bishop of Gortyn in Crete.

So actually Crete may appear to have some possible references to some obscure and very transcendental christian personages such as this Titus.

Quote:

Crete is noted for archeological finds regarding Minoan civilization.

Crete is also regarded as one of the centers of ancient greek law, following the archaeological finds of the The law code of Gortyn. There is at least one shrine to Asclepius on Crete, and stacks of temples.

However I have no idea of what evidence the authors of the quote you originally supplied were talking about, but anyway, thanks,

Best wishes,

Pete

Toto · 10-18-2008, 02:55 PM

The author of the quote I provided was the biographer of Vivekananda, which I cited to clarify your quote from Vivekananda derived from Freke and Gandy. My only aim was to get you to stop repeating stuff that has been discussed before.

According to your theory, Eusebius composed the letter to Titus. (Most mainstream NT scholars consider it to be a second century pseudo-Pauline writing.) Why do you think the author of that letter, whoever he was, put Titus in Crete before moving him to Rome and then sending him off to Dalmatia?

From this essay on archeology, including the early history of Christianity on Crete: "Apart from ancient local tradition which assumed Paul's mission to Crete, regarded Titus as its first bishop and ultimately venerated his relics at Gortyna (Ferguson, 904), we have no other sources for Cretan Christianity in the first century." The earliest Christian inscriptions date from the 4th century.

Also from that link:

Quote:

Eusebius... refers to the second-century correspondence of Bishop Dionysius of Corinth with the Cretan bishops Philip of Gortyna and Pinytus of Knossos. Eusebius describes Philip as the author of a "very elaborate treatise against Marcion" (HE 4.25) who presided over a church both noted for its virtue and, according to Dionysius, endangered by the errors of heretics (HE 4.23).

mountainman · 10-18-2008, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

According to your theory, Eusebius composed the letter to Titus. (Most mainstream NT scholars consider it to be a second century pseudo-Pauline writing.) Why do you think the author of that letter, whoever he was, put Titus in Crete before moving him to Rome and then sending him off to Dalmatia?

Dear Toto,

Crete appears to have been an important center for the greek law codes, and which was perhaps one of the ancient greek strongholds of Hellenic resistance and culture after Romanisation of the empire. See the other cite below.

This is the equivalent of the Ten Commandments, except the Hellenic Law codes were far more specialised, and tolerant, especially of the right of women to own property, etc. Thus a letter needed to be sent by the forger of Paul to represent the existence of some primitive christian churches in Crete, as it was then considered as one of the centers of law. The forger of Paul's letter to the greek speaking academics on Crete was one of necessity, at that time. At one time very early on in the peace the canonical authority stipulated that:

Quote:

The letters of the apostle Paul in number fourteen

to the Romans one letter
to the Corinthians two letters
to the Ephesians one letter
to the Thesalonians two letters
to the Galatians one letter
to the Philippians one letter
to the Colossians one letter
to Timothy two letters
to Titus one letter
to the Philemon one letter
to the Hebrews one letter

How many letters today are considered genuine? And as a consequence, who was the forger of the balance of Paul's letters, and when did that forger author these fabrications? If you are setting up a wandering philosopher and man of letters such as Paul, he must write his letters to important groups of people, and his letters -- like the genuine letters of Apollonius of Tyana -- were collected by famous people after his death.

We are not told by Eusebius where he actually got all his information from other than the archives.

Quote:

Also from that link:

Quote:

Eusebius... refers to the second-century correspondence of Bishop Dionysius of Corinth with the Cretan bishops Philip of Gortyna and Pinytus of Knossos. Eusebius describes Philip as the author of a "very elaborate treatise against Marcion" (HE 4.25) who presided over a church both noted for its virtue and, according to Dionysius, endangered by the errors of heretics (HE 4.23).

IMO an examination of the archaeological finds on Crete, as a regional example, yields no evidence before Constantine of anything like that described by Eusebius. The cultural milieu of Crete exhibits Jewish and Hellenic archaeological evidence in copious amounts, but nothing christian.

Interestingly, I notice that there is an apochrypha Greek Acts of Titus ascribed to Zenas (not earlier than the fifth century). What is that about? And does it relate to the presumed forged letter of Paul to Titus on Crete? And thanks for the clarification about Vivekanda's source.

This from here:

Quote:

According to the Bible, the Philistines originated from the islands and coast lands of the Aegean sea. In the table of nations of Gen. 10:14 the Philistines are mentioned as originating from Caphtor.(3) Jeremiah 47:4 and Amos 9:7 also specifically associate them with Caphtor which can be identified with the area of Crete.(4) Ezekiel 25:15-16 and Zeph 2:5 portray the Philistines in poetic parallel with the Cherethites (also from Crete).

Best wishes,

Pete

Toto · 10-19-2008, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

...
IMO an examination of the archaeological finds on Crete, as a regional example, yields no evidence before Constantine of anything like that described by Eusebius. The cultural milieu of Crete exhibits Jewish and Hellenic archaeological evidence in copious amounts, but nothing christian.

Eusebius did not describe anything that would necessarily leave archeological remains - a book written by a "Bishop" conveniently opposing Marcion, and some theological strife.

Christianity at this time did not build buildings or edifices. The Christian movement was probably like the Green Party in the US - groups of people who met in living rooms or open spaces. An archeologist from the future would not find any evidence of the Green Party in California, but everyone here knows someone in the Green Party.

Even at Dura Europa, there was an elaborate synagogue for the Jewish community. The Christian church was relatively plain and unadorned.

Quote:

Interestingly, I notice that there is an apochrypha Greek Acts of Titus ascribed to Zenas (not earlier than the fifth century). What is that about? And does it relate to the presumed forged letter of Paul to Titus on Crete?

If it's from the 5th century, it's not relevant here. It's just another historical novel.

Quote:

And thanks for the clarification about Vivekanda's source.

Just stop quoting it if as if it means something.

mountainman · 10-19-2008, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

...
IMO an examination of the archaeological finds on Crete, as a regional example, yields no evidence before Constantine of anything like that described by Eusebius. The cultural milieu of Crete exhibits Jewish and Hellenic archaeological evidence in copious amounts, but nothing christian.

Eusebius did not describe anything that would necessarily leave archeological remains - a book written by a "Bishop" conveniently opposing Marcion, and some theological strife.

Dear Toto,

Perhaps Eusebius was in no position to do so.

Quote:

Christianity at this time did not build buildings or edifices. The Christian movement was probably like the Green Party in the US - groups of people who met in living rooms or open spaces. An archeologist from the future would not find any evidence of the Green Party in California, but everyone here knows someone in the Green Party.

Do the green party publish any propaganda anywhere at all? Would we find any of this in rubbish bins at the edges of National Parks, with appropriate terminus ad quiems?

Quote:

Even at Dura Europa, there was an elaborate synagogue for the Jewish community. The Christian church was relatively plain and unadorned.

For future reference lets please be very specific about this Dura citation. We do not have any evidence for there being a christian church at Dura Europos. We do not have any evidence for there being a christian church-house at Dura Europos. What we are dealing with is a possible sighting c.1928 CE for what has been very specifically termed a house-church, not a church, neither a church-house.

The suspected christian house-church was shifted from Dura to the Yale Divinity College for interrogation and routine maintenance. The only known (albeit suspected) pre-Constantinian christian shrine on the planet, amidst thousands of shrines to Asclepius for the same epoch of ancient history (say 012 to 312 CE), and it is locked away at Yale. What gives?

Best wishes,

Pete

mountainman · 10-19-2008, 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

I notice that there is an apochrypha Greek Acts of Titus ascribed to Zenas (not earlier than the fifth century). What is that about? And does it relate to the presumed forged letter of Paul to Titus on Crete?

If it's from the 5th century, it's not relevant here. It's just another historical novel.

Dear Toto,

I have not been able to find a copy of the text of the Acts of Titus anywhere on the net. The best I have been able to do for the moment is to read the material available of which one of the better treatments I have found, the PDF from i.czachesz, where the author makes the following summary:

Quote:

ACTS of TITUS

CONCLUSION

We can call the commission of Titus institutional in more than one way.
It integrates its hero into the institutional framework of the apostolic
church, the life of the higher classes, and Roman politics. And in this way
it also established the official status of christianity. The commission of Titus
is a cult-narrative which tells the initiation of a cultic hero and thus
explains the introductionn of a new cult. The pattern is found in Hellenistic
Egypt in the so-called Zoilus letter, where the hero writes that Sarapis had
more than once ordered him in a dream to sail over to Apollonius (the minister
of Ptolemy II) and tell him that the temple of Sarapis must be built and a
priest established in the Greek quarter of the city. [53]

Among the other apostolic Acts, the Acts of Thomas relates that the apostle converted kings to Christianity. [54] Sometimes it is the rulers themselves who are commanded by the divinity to introduce the new religion. A good example from dynastic Egypt is the cultic reform of Pharoah Ikhnaton, who introduced the worship of Aton the new solar god and built the new capital Akhetaton (Tell el-Amarna). [55]

Among Christian biographies we can quote Eusebius' account of how the visions of Constantine the Great prepared his reforms introducing Christianity as an imperial cult, [56] including the transfer of the capital to Constantinople, which marked his "own transformation from a Western to an Eastern ruler", [57] In this context we have to understand the "renewal of the islands" in the Acts of Titus as a political program. This agenda is fulfilled when the apostle Titus, member of the local higher class, establishes Christianity on Crete in cooperation with proconsuls and relying on the permission and support of emperors.

To sum it up, the commission of Titus in his Acts follows established literary patterns better than does any of the previously discussed texts. We can observe here:

(1) the structure of the Greco-Roman biography,
(2) the influence of Christian biographies,
(3) an established tradition of conversion in hagiography, making use of bibliomancy (perfectly embodied by the "Confessions of Augustine" [58]), and
(4) the pattern of introducing new cults, especially as formulated in eastern traditions.

The institutional form of commission is brought to perfection in this text, which projects the positive reception of Christianity by the Greco-Roman higher class back to the lifetime of Jesus, and presents the introduction of a new cult as the concern of the political establishment of that age. Commission becomes political fiction when the Roman proconsul sends an envoy to Palestine to learn from Jesus, or a christian sanctuary is built from imperial money under Trajan.

Best wishes,

Pete

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