Freethought & Rationalism Archive

matthewthomas · 07-31-2007, 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

...That Moses was largely or entirely mythical.

Robert Price has some comments on the mythical nature of Moses, here:
http://www.secularhumanism.org/libra...price_20_1.htm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Price

It is surprising that one does not hear more expressions of doubt as to the historical existence of Moses, the ostensible originator of the Hebrew law. I suspect this is because such suspicions would be heard as attacks upon the Torah itself, and this implicit equation, I shall argue, is a natural one. It is reflected in the ancient custom of the rabbis who used the name Moses as synechdoche for the Torah commandments "Moses says . . .". Indeed, Moses is essentially a narrative embodiment of the Torah. In the vast majority of biblical tales in which he appears he does not transcend his function of constituting a peg upon which to hang this or that legal precedent.

Best wishes,
Matthew

Godless Dave · 07-31-2007, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheerful Charlie

You have more liklihood of finding a historical King Arthur.

I think that's a pretty good analogy. There may well have been a historical King Arthur, except his name probably wasn't Arthur, and he probably wasn't a king. But there may have been a British leader who rallied various British tribes against the Anglo-Saxons.

And, as you alluded, there is copious evidence that the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes migrated to England and displaced the British, while there is no evidence that the ancestors of the Israelites ever lived in Egypt.

Doug Shaver · 07-31-2007, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

That would also explain why Moses's burial site has never been found

Does that need an explanation?

Is there any identifiable person from that period of history, whose existence is undisputed, whose grave has been located?

Aspirin99 · 07-31-2007, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

That would also explain why Moses's burial site has never been found

Does that need an explanation?

Is there any identifiable person from that period of history, whose existence is undisputed, whose grave has been located?

Easy. Thutmose I, 3rd Pharaoh of the 18th dynasty.

Steven Avery · 08-01-2007, 06:22 AM

Hi Folks,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aspirin99

The pharoah who ousted the Hyksos from Egypt was named Ahmose I, c 1550 BC. It's fairly easy to see how that could have been garbled into "Moses" in the intervening centuries.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

That would also explain why Moses's burial site has never been found,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aspirin99

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Is there any identifiable person from that period of history, whose existence is undisputed, whose grave has been located?

Easy. Thutmose I, 3rd Pharaoh of the 18th dynasty.

And "The Exodus Case" by Lennart Möller goes into these issues in some depth. With Ahmose being the the same person as Thutmosis I and Moses being Thutmosis II. The building Deir El Bahri has an uncompleted statue of the stepmother Nefure and Moses (Senmut). The grave there:

"was never finished and no-one was buried in it. One reason may be that the building of an even grander grave was begun when Moses became Thutmosis II at the age of approx. 33 years.

Grave number 353 is interesting because no-one was ever buried in this burial chamber. This was probably the second burial chamber built for Moses and in this case would represent the royal grave. When one goes down in to this grave it can be seen that it is unfinished..." (p.121)

Shalom,
Steven Avery
Queens, NY

Doug Shaver · 08-01-2007, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Does that need an explanation?

Is there any identifiable person from that period of history, whose existence is undisputed, whose grave has been located?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aspirin99

Easy. Thutmose I, 3rd Pharaoh of the 18th dynasty.

Very well. Next question: Is the number of such known burial sites sufficient to make it puzzling if we don't know where somebody was buried?

Aspirin99 · 08-01-2007, 08:28 AM

Just a note- praxeus has quoted me as saying something that was actually said by Minimalist. I never said "The pharoah who ousted the Hyksos from Egypt was named Ahmose I..."

Minimalist · 08-01-2007, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aspirin99

Just a note- praxeus has quoted me as saying something that was actually said by Minimalist. I never said "The pharoah who ousted the Hyksos from Egypt was named Ahmose I..."

Correct. I did.

I didn't think it was a novel statement.

http://terraflex.co.il/ad/egypt/history18-20.htm

Quote:

Ahmose I (r. c.1570-1546 BCE), was the founder of the 18th dynasty, one of the most outstanding in the history of ancient Egypt. His principal achievement was to weaken the Hyksos, who had dominated Lower Egypt for some 300 years, by taking Avaris, their citadel in the north. He pursued them into southern Palestine and laid siege to Sharuhen for three years.

spamandham · 08-01-2007, 10:32 PM

Was Moses a myth?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

...That Moses was largely or entirely mythical.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

So if there was a historical Moses, was he some now-obscure local leader who got embellished by generations of mythmakers?

Since the plausibility he didn't even exist is strong, this implies no conclusion can be drawn as to who he was, under the assumption he did exist.

lpetrich · 08-01-2007, 11:16 PM

I will concede that there is not much that can be concluded from his burial place being unknown to later generations; that's happened to even very notable people of centuries past. I was provoked to think about that by Deuteronomy's author's comment about his burial site being unknown, and that author was much closer in time than we are to Moses (if he ever existed).

This also means that later generations of priests had attributed their laws to Moses, who had supposedly gotten them from God Almighty.

Moses would thus become like other legendary founder figures:
Minos - Crete
Theseus - Athens
Lycurgus - Sparta
Cadmus - Thebes
Perseus - Mycenae
Romulus - Rome

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08-01-2007, 08:28 AM	#17
Aspirin99 Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: TalkingTimeline.com Posts: 151	Just a note- praxeus has quoted me as saying something that was actually said by Minimalist. I never said "The pharoah who ousted the Hyksos from Egypt was named Ahmose I..."

08-01-2007, 11:16 PM	#20
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	I will concede that there is not much that can be concluded from his burial place being unknown to later generations; that's happened to even very notable people of centuries past. I was provoked to think about that by Deuteronomy's author's comment about his burial site being unknown, and that author was much closer in time than we are to Moses (if he ever existed). This also means that later generations of priests had attributed their laws to Moses, who had supposedly gotten them from God Almighty. Moses would thus become like other legendary founder figures: Minos - Crete Theseus - Athens Lycurgus - Sparta Cadmus - Thebes Perseus - Mycenae Romulus - Rome

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