Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Larsguy47 · 04-19-2007, 08:39 PM

THANKS EVERYBODY.

ALSO THANKS IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR LINKS AND REFERENCES!

LARSGUY47:notworthy: :notworthy:

Biff the unclean · 04-19-2007, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

A reasonable presumption, but its possible that's not the case. My challenge would be what if the Jews didn't WANT to leave anything behind at that site and purposely made sure nothing was left behind? Could a satelite still tell they had been there?

If you have something more specific on this, it would be nice to post it in support of your supposition. Thanks.

LG47

So for 40 years the Jews didn't light a camp fire?
The guy they murder for gathering wood on the sabbath, what was he doing with all those twigs?

Avatar · 04-20-2007, 12:29 AM

So because there's no evidence of your Exodus, you presume that some catastrophic event mist have hit a giant "reset" button? That won't wash either. Archaeologists and geologists know what to look for...signs of past disasters and such. No such indications are present in the area during the critical time periods.

Several hundred thousand people, possibly a million or more, and they ALL cleaned up after themselves with a level of skill and thoroughness that has never been seen before...for forty years? And no mass latrines or mass graves either. Why do you suppose that is? Did they just "hold it" for forty years? And wasn't the purpose of wandering around for so long to get the older generation to die off? Where are their graves?

The Exodus tale is quite specific: Hundreds of thousands of people. Yet not a trace of their magical trek can be found.

Maybe because...it didn't happen?

(Now for some rampant speculation)

Have you ever read Le Mort D'Arthur? The gentleman who wrote it created it because he felt that England didn't have a sufficiently impressive mythical history. So he cobbled together the stories from previously existing cultures and created his own cast to populate the tales. From this we get King Arthur and his Round Table. Is it so far beyond the pale that the ancient Hebrews may have simply made up an impressive-sounding mythology to explain their hazy history and customs?

spin · 04-20-2007, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hex

It's simple. There's no evidence because ... it didn't happen!

Ohh, yeah... Doh! Why didn't I see that!!!:huh:

Because you were too busy falling over your presuppositions.

One of the things about stony deserts is that they tend to hold their secrets well for those who know where to dig for them. There isn't much sand to cover things up. There aren't many visitors to vandalize them. In such circumstances lack of evidence of an event that leaves traces usually means that such an event didn't happen.

RED DAVE · 04-20-2007, 02:33 AM

Let's not forget, that we are entering into a round of debate with a person who believes that a 6'4" Black transvestite who sees visions in the clouds, is actually the Messiah.

Rational argument and the presentation of evidence is useless when dealing with paranoia. For the paranoid, it's all grist for the mill. Because A is not B, that's proof that, in fact, it is B. And the paranoid will find evidence that it is and cling to it. Their entire identity is wrapped up in the delusion, which must be affirmed.

From Wikipedia:

Quote:

Psychiatric definition [delusion]

Although non-specific concepts of madness have been around for several thousand years, the psychiatrist and philosopher Karl Jaspers was the first to define the three main criteria for a belief to be considered delusional in his book General Psychopathology. These criteria are:

• certainty (held with absolute conviction)

• incorrigibility (not changeable by compelling counterargument or proof to the contrary)

• impossibility or falsity of content (implausible, bizarre or patently untrue)
These criteria still live on in modern psychiatric diagnosis. In the most recent Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, a delusion is defined as:

A false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly sustained despite what almost everybody else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary. The belief is not one ordinarily accepted by other members of the person's culture or subculture (e.g., it is not an article of religious faith).

RED DAVE

Larsguy47 · 04-20-2007, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RED DAVE

Let's not forget, that we are entering into a round of debate with a person who believes that a 6'4" Black transvestite who sees visions in the clouds, is actually the Messiah.

Rational argument and the presentation of evidence is useless when dealing with paranoia. For the paranoid, it's all grist for the mill. Because A is not B, that's proof that, in fact, it is B. And the paranoid will find evidence that it is and cling to it. Their entire identity is wrapped up in the delusion, which must be affirmed.

From Wikipedia:

RED DAVE

Answered here.

PLease try and stay on topic, RED GUY, I'm beginning to think you're getting a bit paranoid.

LG47

3DJay · 04-20-2007, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

What if, as the habit was, they actually had few possessions and cleaned up after themselves, possibly for fear of others finding out too much about them?

Tsk. Tsk. Haven't been reading your Bible, yet again. Few possessions...

Exodus 3:21 "And I will make the Egyptians favorably disposed toward this people, so that when you leave you will not go empty-handed. 22 Every woman is to ask her neighbor and any woman living in her house for articles of silver and gold and for clothing, which you will put on your sons and daughters. And so you will plunder the Egyptians."

Exodus 12:35 The Israelites did as Moses instructed and asked the Egyptians for articles of silver and gold and for clothing. 36 The LORD had made the Egyptians favorably disposed toward the people, and they gave them what they asked for; so they plundered the Egyptians.

Exodus 12:37 The Israelites journeyed from Rameses to Succoth. There were about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children. 38 Many other people went up with them, as well as large droves of livestock, both flocks and herds.

Exodus 13:18 So God led the people around by the desert road toward the Red Sea. The Israelites went up out of Egypt armed for battle.

Not only did they have many possessions, and livestock, they should have built fires, as Biff stated. They should have had deaths, big time.

Using the present global death rate, of 8.67/1000, and estimating the population to, at minimum, 1000000 people, the Israelites should have left 346800 corpses, over a 40 year period. And, that's using a low death rate and population estimate.

No ceremonial burials, in a population of a million Israelites, over 40 years? No waterlogged Egyptian army? No large scale ceremonial burials, of all Egypt's firstborns, in one night? Not one account of all Egypt's livestock dying, then, their undead livestock growing boils, then, their undead livestock getting beaten by hail, then, all of their firstborn undead livestock dying again?

Quote:

Plains Indians in North America wer nomadic and had a defensive means of relocating, virtually leaving a site with no evidence they had ever been there, traveling in single file to hide their numbers, etc.

Index of Native American Archaeology & Anthropology Resources on the Internet

Quote:

Here's something interesting I hadn't seen before!!

One of the MAJOR problems is that one of the basic building techniques in the highlands, such as Bethel/AI, was to remove previous debris[ LOF:133]:

"Indeed, in almost every multi-period highland site west of the Jordan, intensive building activity in later periods removed all architectural traces of the scanty earlier occupations. This happened because the basic building technique in the highlands was always to remove all earlier material in order to establish the walls directly on bedrock."

Ohhhhhh, right, why didn't I think of that one. The desert cites have obviously been erased due to intensive building activity.....ummm, wait a minute....there's something missing in that equation.....oh, right, intensive building activity, in the desert.

Peace

RED DAVE · 04-20-2007, 03:03 AM

From Larsguy47:

Quote:

Just because somone is paranoid doesn't mean they can't copytype from a book. Further, 4-inch spike heels "keep me on my toes" in more ways than one. I'll be happy to discuss details of my delusions in the "Elsewhere" board, but do try to stay on point if at all possible. This discussion is about issues supporting or lacking support of the israelite trek of 40 years in the wilderness. My messiahship distracts me, but don't let it distract you RED guy.

Your delusions make it impossible to carry on a rational discourse with you. Here again, is the definition of delusion:

Quote:

A false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly sustained despite what almost everybody else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary.

We are not engaged here, from your side, in fruitful debate. We are instead engaged in the process of you attempting to affirm your delusions. Given this point, which is confirmed over and over again with regard to yourself, meaningful discourse is impossible.

We are still, for example, waiting for the alleged secret book claiming that Socrates and Aristotle were lovers. Produce it, and then maybe we can talk. Until then, no debate. Just show us the book.

RED DAVE

post tenebras lux · 04-20-2007, 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RED DAVE

I am going to get you for that.

Then, for all those boy children born, you expect to find a lot of dried up foreskins fountain pens lying around.

RED DAVE

Tut tut Red Dave, I'd have thought you'd know your Joshua 5:

Especially Joshua 5:4-6:

Quote:

Joshua 5:4 The reason why Joshua circumcised them was this: all the males old enough to bear arms who had come out of Egypt had died in the wilderness
Joshua 5:5 All the people who came out of Egypt had been circumsized, but none of those born during the journey in the wilderness had been circumcized.
Joshua 5:6 For forty years the Israelites had travelled through the wilderness until all the men old enough to bear arms when they left Egypt had died, since they had not obeyed Yahweh.

So, what happened to their corpses?

Larsguy47 · 04-20-2007, 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RED DAVE

From Larsguy47:
Your delusions make it impossible to carry on a rational discourse with you. Here again, is the definition of delusion:

We are not engaged here, from your side, in fruitful debate. We are instead engaged in the process of you attempting to affirm your delusions. Given this point, which is confirmed over and over again with regard to yourself, meaningful discourse is impossible.

The issue of archaeological evidence for the Jews in the wilderness trek came up before and is discussed in many books, so it's a common topic I'm interested in. And so what if it further's my delusions? So far so good since I found out that some cities were completely removed of debris before rebuilding and others were used to supplement the rebuilding of other cities. Leaving little for archaeological investigations later. So this has been helpful for me.

Quote:

We are still, for example, waiting for the alleged secret book claiming that Socrates and Aristotle were lovers. Produce it, and then maybe we can talk. Until then, no debate. Just show us the book.

RED DAVE[/QUOTE]

Are you? Hold your breath and count to 2000. Have you ever heard of a reporter that doesn't divulge his source on a story?

Anyway, do try to stay on topic. I'll discuss non-wilderness trek issues with you in Elsewhere, promise. But you engage with me at your own risk, you might learn something.

LG47

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04-19-2007, 08:39 PM	#31
Larsguy47 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 976	THANKS EVERYBODY. ALSO THANKS IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR LINKS AND REFERENCES! LARSGUY47:notworthy: :notworthy:

04-20-2007, 12:29 AM	#33
Avatar Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Santa Rosa, CA Posts: 2,817	So because there's no evidence of your Exodus, you presume that some catastrophic event mist have hit a giant "reset" button? That won't wash either. Archaeologists and geologists know what to look for...signs of past disasters and such. No such indications are present in the area during the critical time periods. Several hundred thousand people, possibly a million or more, and they ALL cleaned up after themselves with a level of skill and thoroughness that has never been seen before...for forty years? And no mass latrines or mass graves either. Why do you suppose that is? Did they just "hold it" for forty years? And wasn't the purpose of wandering around for so long to get the older generation to die off? Where are their graves? The Exodus tale is quite specific: Hundreds of thousands of people. Yet not a trace of their magical trek can be found. Maybe because...it didn't happen? (Now for some rampant speculation) Have you ever read Le Mort D'Arthur? The gentleman who wrote it created it because he felt that England didn't have a sufficiently impressive mythical history. So he cobbled together the stories from previously existing cultures and created his own cast to populate the tales. From this we get King Arthur and his Round Table. Is it so far beyond the pale that the ancient Hebrews may have simply made up an impressive-sounding mythology to explain their hazy history and customs?

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