andrewcriddle

My point is that the texts of the latter part of the Ascension of Isaiah fall into two groups represented by the Ethiopic on one hand and the Latin/Slavonic on the other. The Greek Legend basically belongs to the Ethiopic group (although it is a very very free paraphrase) and by stemmatic/cladistic principles agreements between, a/ the Greek Legend and/or the Ethiopic, and b/ the Latin/Slavonic have a strong case to be present in the Archetype.

Now the Greek Legend has 'the one who is about to descend from the heavens and to live among (sunanastrefesqai) humans according to our forms (eideas), the son of God.' Corresponding to 'And I saw one ilke a Son of man and he lived with men in the world' in the Latin/Slavonic. The Ethiopic has no such statement but the agreement of the Latin/Slavonic with the Greek Legend implies that something like this goes back to the Archetype.

Hence if we can on textual grounds say anything at all about the original passage corresponding to 11:2-22 in the Ethiopic, it is that it said something about the Son of God living among humans.

It isn't in the Latin/Slavonic and I don't know why. Putting to Death and Descent to Sheol are referred to in chapter 9 in the Latin/Slavonic and descent to Sheol in chapter 10.

In all other places in the Ascension of Isaiah 'they did not recognize him' occurs in association witth the Death of the Son of God but this is lacking in the Latin/Slavonic here.

My gues is that a couple of lines have been lost by accident here from the Grrek text underlying the Latin/Slavonic (there are IIUC other places where this may have happened). However I admit that this is a somewhat weak and lame explanation.

I'm going to speculate here about what happened to the text of chapter 11, ie what follows is to some extent guessing. The bit in 11:2-22 that I think has to be an interpolation is the material in roughly verses 2-18 about the conception birth and early childhood of the Son of God. (Apart from anything else this material appears based on the Protevangelium of James.). We have little or no trace of this material in the Greek Legend suggesting that the birth stories may be a rather late addition eg late 3rd century. However the 'Greek Legend' does have Just so will you descend even to the angel of Hades in Jerusalem; he will not depart until you die. And it will be that when you are killed by them, you will ascend here. which seems clearly related to 11:19-20. IMHO the original of chapter 11 explicitly had the Son of God dying in Jerusalem and descending to Sheol, what it lacked was any birth or childhood of the Son of God who descends to Earth from the heavens as an adult as in some Gnostic schemes. Later the tradition represented by the Ethiopic made the Ascension of Isaiah more orthodox by adding a birth narrative.

Andrew Criddle

andrewcriddle

I don't doubt that violence could happen in the firmament (ie war in heaven). And it seems that in some forms of Middle Platonism death can happen in the firmament. (See Plutarch 'On the Face in the Moon' and 'On the Obsolescense of Oracles')

What I have trouble with is death by violence in the Firmament.

In those Middle Platonists like Plutarch who have some sort of doctrine of death in the lower heavens it is sharply distinguished from the violence and suffering of bodily death on earth. See 'On the Face in the Moon' (Online at http://thriceholy.net/Texts/Moon.html)

Andrew Criddle

GakuseiDon

A different locale, definitely. A different sphere? No, and that to me is the sticking point addressed in the OP.

I'm not sure why you regard Ocellus's understanding as immaterial. He was a Middle Platonist, and his view - of a dual level universe consisting of a supra-lunar realm (above the firmament) and sub-lunar realm (below the firmament) - is consistent with other Middle Platonists AFAICS.

Now, the heavens certainly have different spheres. The AoI refers to a "first" heaven, a "second" heaven, etc. But by referring to separate spheres in the sub-lunar realm, you are in effect saying that there is a "first" earth and a "second" earth - and the evidence is just not there to support this, I'm afraid.

The sub-lunar realm extended from the firmament down to the earth. There is no separate sphere within it. Satan and the demons didn't live in a separate spiritual sub-lunar realm, they lived in the air above (and also on earth for that matter).

Earl, in your view, when the AoI refers to the firmament, is it referring to the firmament that we can see when we look up, or does it refer to a separate 'spiritual firmament'?

Yes, no problem there. The demons existing in the firmament struggle and envy just as demons and people do on earth.

Yes, I have no problem with this either. That fact that the firmament is not a separate sphere doesn't necessarily mean that Christ couldn't have been crucified up in the air. It comes down to the evidence.

But that is not the topic of the OP. I should point out that a lot of the readers who read your book seem to come away with the impression that you are postulating a separate "fleshy" sublunar realm that is somehow separate to our own. Our modern mindset, thanks to Buffy and The Twilight Zone is familiar with the idea of parallel dimensions, and I think this may be misleading us.

I think that those readers are seeing the sublunar realm in terms of being in a separate dimension, rather than the air that we can see when we look up. I'd really appreciate you confirming your understanding of what the sublunar realm is, and whether it extended to earth or not, at least from the perspective of early (mythicist) Christianity.

EarlDoherty

The governing statement is the first above. You now accept that, regardless of whether the firmament is a separate sphere from the earth or not, neither interpretation rules out that Christ could have been crucified in it. That makes the rest, along with this whole thread, simply a smokescreen, it seems to me, in that by trying to deny the distinction, you thought to ‘disprove’ my contention that Christ could have been crucified in the air. That has now been abandoned, it seems, so I’m glad we’ve settled that.

Let’s go on to that “evidence� you say it comes down to. Sometime tomorrow I’ll take a close look at the relevant chapters of the Ascension of Isaiah.

GakuseiDon

Yep. We need to look at the evidence before ruling something in or out.

It definitely isn't a smokescreen. It is one of the topics of the OP. I think that the distinction is important, since it shows a fundamental error in your analysis. There simply is no evidence that someone could be crucified, buried and born of a woman in the air.

I've asked you a few times to clearly state your understanding of what the sublunar realm is, and whether it extended to earth or not. Also whether the firmament in AofI is the same one that we see when we look up. Since you are placing the crucifixion there, I'm sure you can see why this may be important. Even if you don't, you must have some understanding in mind on what was sub-lunar and supra-lunar.

This is what you wrote on your website, with my comments below
http://jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/supp03.htm

Earl: The ancient mind at the turn of the era saw the universe as multi-layered. Under the influence of Platonism, there was first of all a dualistic division between the lower material world where humans lived, and the higher, spiritual world where divinity dwelled.

Yes: a supra-lunar realm above the firmament, and a sub-lunar realm below the firmament. Angels lived above the firmament, and demons and humans below the firmament.

Earl: The former was only a transient, imperfect copy of the latter. Spiritual processes and the activity of gods in the higher realm had their corresponding effects on the world below. Paul thus lived at a time when the world of matter was viewed as only one dimension of reality, the observable half of a larger integrated whole whose other, invisible, half was referred to as the "genuine" reality, accessible to the intellect.

No real problem there, though I would argue that it depends on whether you are looking at Jewish/Christian beliefs or Roman ones, and which ones. Andrew Criddle gives a good summary, with links to sources, here: http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=119283

While there were varying views about what existed above the firmament, they were essentially the same about what existed below the firmament. For the Christians, the sub-lunar realm contained creatures subject to change and "earthly" desires: humans living on the earth, and demons who lived in the air. For the Romans, "daemons" could be evil creatures or the spirits of heroes who hadn't passed on.

Earl: But most views of the universe also saw a division of the upper world into several levels—usually seven, based on the known planets. As a deity descended from the higher reaches of pure spirit, he passed through ever degenerating levels of the heavens, and took on an increasing likeness to lower, material forms as well as an ability to suffer fleshly fates, such as pain and death. The first level of the spirit world was the air, or "firmament," between the earth and the moon.

This is wrong IMO. The AofI lists seven levels ABOVE the firmament: "first heaven" to "seventh heaven". Those are in the supra-lunar realm. So the air between the earth and the moon in AofI could NOT be the "first level of the spirit world". The air is part of the sub-lunar realm where material forms like humans and demons existed and were subject to change and desires.

Here is the AofI, showing the descend from the seventh heaven to the first, and then into the sublunar realm:

17. And so I saw my Lord go forth from the seventh heaven...
25. And again I saw when He descended into the second heaven...
26. And I saw when He made Himself like unto the form of the angels in the second heaven, and they saw Him and they did not praise Him; for His form was like unto their form.
27. And again I saw when He descended into the first heaven... and He made Himself like unto the form of the angels who were on the left of that throne, and they neither praised nor lauded Him; for His form was like unto their form...
29. And again He descended into the firmament where dwelleth the ruler of this world, and He gave the password to those on the left, and His form was like theirs, and they did not praise Him there; but they were envying one another and fighting; for here there is a power of evil and envying about trifles

Earl: This was the domain of the demon spirits—in Jewish parlance, of Satan and his evil angels—and it was regarded as closely connected to the earthly sphere. The demonic spiritual powers belonged to the realm of flesh (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, VII, p.128) and they were thought of as in some way corporeal, though they possessed 'heavenly' versions of earthly bodies (Ibid., p.143).

Kind of, though a bit confusing the way it's stated. Demons possessed their own bodies, variously described as consisting of air or fire, or of an unknown nature. But they weren't "heavenly" versions of earthly bodies, in the sense as being similar to the heavenly creatures above the firmament.

Earl: Thus it was wholly conceivable for Paul's savior deity in that spiritual world to descend into the realm of the demon spirits. Here he would be in the sphere of flesh, which fits the early writers' almost universal use of such stereotyped phrases as "in flesh," "according to the flesh." (C. K. Barrett translates kata sarka in Romans 1:3 as "in the sphere of the flesh." See his Epistle to the Romans, p.20; compare C. E. B. Cranfield, International Critical Commentary: Romans, p.60.)

Yes, the AofI has Christ descending below the firmament into our own sub-lunar world, where the demons didn't recognise him, since he made himself of the same nature as them. This seems to be to explain how Christ was able to descend unnoticed, a similar theme referred to by Ignatius:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...s-roberts.html

"Now the virginity of Mary was hidden from the prince of this world, as was also her offspring, and the death of the Lord; three mysteries of renown, which were wrought in silence by God."

GakuseiDon

To continue:

The sub-lunar realm extended from the firmament down to the earth, and contained creatures subject to change and "earthly" desires. Air and fire were thought to be "spiritual" materials and thus ascended above earth and water which were thought to be more base. Demons were thought to be made of air or fire, and so were regarded as "aerial" creatures. But both humans and demons belonged to the sub-lunar realm. Satan was the "prince of this world" and "prince of the powers of the air".

In AofI, Christ descends from the seventh heaven down to the first heaven, then through the firmament into the sub-lunar realm. In order to avoid being noticed, his form changes to match the inhabitants that he is trying to avoid drawing notice from. (I believe that this was to answer the question: why didn't the demons know that Christ had descended to earth and been born of a virgin?) So, at the firmament, he has a body like that of the demons.

Now, it is at this location that Earl believes that Satan and the demons crucified Christ. I don't think that this can be supported by the evidence. I don't know of any evidence that there were trees in the air to be crucified on, or ground to be buried in, or women to give birth to Christ. And, if this were the realm of demons, who was Christ talking to at the Lord's Supper? Who was he asking to remember him by the breaking of bread and drinking of wine?

EarlDoherty

I am going to continue this discussion in a new thread focusing on the Ascension of Isaiah:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=144279

but after reading the immediately preceding post in the present thread by Don, I have to wonder why I am wasting my time and my breath, as I don't seem to be able to get across even the most basic concepts to him. He is still bringing literalism to savior-god mythology, he is still going on about trees in the air and who Christ was talking to at the Lord's Supper. Where in the Platonic heavens did Attis find the knife to castrate himself with? Where did Mithras and the sun god find the plates on which they celebrated their own mythic meal? Where the bread they broke together?

Ancient mythology in Middle Platonic times, or the minds who believed in it, did not function like this.

(Sigh...)

GakuseiDon

Yes, this is something else that needs to be brought up. AFAICS, your examples involving Julian the Apostate's view of Attis is that the acts were symbolic (p 104 and p 313 in your book), so the castration didn't happen at all as a literal event. Yet on your website, you say that "Paul seems to have very much believed in the divine Jesus' literal suffering at the hands of the demon spirits" (my emphasis). So you are confusing two different concepts here.

I've tried a few times to get you to explain what you understand about the sub-lunar realm, and about whether the firmament being referred to in AofI is the one we see when we look up. It seems to be difficult to pin you down on this, I'm afraid, and this is perhaps why I keep misunderstanding you.

I refer you to Andrew Criddle's summary of the position of writers of that day on the question of celestial events. Clearly, you are blurring the distinction between Middle Platonists' beliefs in a supra-lunar/sub-lunar cosmos, and the more allegorical approach of Julian and Plutarch.

Earl, in your view:

1) Did Paul believe that Christ was crucified in the sub-lunar realm by demons? That is, are you suggesting that Christ actually descended, took on an "aerial" body, and was literally crucified? (This is what I think you are suggesting)

2) Was Attis actually crucifed with a knife in the celestial realms? That is, at some point, did Attis take a knife and castrate himself? Or is this an allegory, and something that never happened? (I think you are suggesting that it is an allegory)

You seem to be blurring the distinction between different views here. Now, either Paul believed that Christ was actually crucified in the air by demons, or he didn't believe it actually happened, i.e. he regarded it as allegorical. Can you clarify which you think is the case?

If, in your view, he DID believe it actually happened, then the natural question that arises is who exactly was he breaking bread with while in a demon realm?

I also think we need to see where we agree and where we disagree. Based on my reading of second century literature, there is no doubt in my mind that they believed that the demons lived in the sub-lunar realm, and that the sub-lunar realm encompassed the earth, since it extended to the earth. Athenagoras writes here:

These angels, then, who have fallen from heaven, and haunt the air and the earth, and are no longer able to rise to heavenly things, and the souls of the giants, which are the demons who wander about the world, perform actions similar, the one (that is, the demons) to the natures they have received, the other (that is, the angels) to the appetites they have indulged.

Earl, ALL writers that I have seen have the demons existing in our world either in the air or on earth. The implication is that for Christ to have been crucified by demons, it HAS to have been done in the air. And there are no trees in the air.

I've presented fairly clear evidence that the sub-lunar realm is the air that we see when we look up. Unless you can clearly define your thinking on what is happening in the sub-lunar realm, I'm afraid we are going to keep having these misunderstandings.

Vorkosigan

Paul isn't speaking of a historical event, but information that he received from Jesus -- Jesus told him that on the night he was delivered up, he broke bread and had wine. When Hong Hsiu-chuan, the Taiping leader who thought he was the little brother of Jesus, ascended into heaven, he was given a sword and told to kill demons. People give and receive things, and talk and eat, in the heavenly sphere all the time.

Similarly, Paul is simply inventing heavenly sanction for earthly practice. The meal, he asserts, is backed by Jesus own actions that Jesus told him about. Paul is just like Hong, extemporizing heaven's word whenever he needs it. He can't be referring to history, Don, because if so, then you are essentially arguing that Jesus founded a cult on the day before his death. The whole idea of a sacral meal at the heart of a celebration of Jesus' death and resurrection is entirely post-Jesus in origin. It presumes events that have already happened. It can't be history.

Note that here is another one of the millions of silences.....Paul could have pointed out all sorts of facts and details about the dinner, who was there, his connection to them, etc, but he doesn't. Instead, we get only the words, and we get no historical picture at all. Why? Because there is no underlying history. Everything happened in Paul's fertile imagination.

I think it is pretty pointless to try and pin down exactly in which of the many possible celestial venues Jesus was crucified, anymore than it is to try and discover exactly where Hong Hsiu-chuan was when he slew 18 demons and got himself new bowels from God himself. You can make a case, as Earl as done, but the key point is to realize that Paul does not know these events as historical events but understands them as events that have occurred in some other reality that is near or overlaps our own.

Vorkosigan

GakuseiDon

Hi Vork. It is Earl's case that I am questioning. I'm pointing out that his views on the sub-lunar realm appear to be wrong. If he wants to claim that Paul believes that the demons crucified Christ, then I would say he is wrong since demons lived in the air, and there is no evidence that crucifixion could occur in the air. But first I have to get him to clarify his view on what the sub-lunar realm is.
This is certainly Earl's view. What is the evidence that Paul believed the events occurred in some other reality, IYO?