Nom

Of course it isn't enough, but it's only a single example of many presented by McDonald. If you want more info, I can only echo what others have said: read the book. It makes a very compelling case for Homeric influence in Mark, and if McDonald (as some critics allege) over-reaches in calling it a transvaluative hypertext of the Oddesey (and parts of the Iliad), there are still many very strong parallels that deserve further study. Personally, since you've already made a study of Mark, I'd be interested in what you make of it.

Edit: heck, given that you and I share that interest listed in your profile, and you're in Ct. & I'm in Jersey, let's meet up & I'll loan ya my copy. And buy the first round.

NOGO

Let's gives some examples.

"Sons of thunder" the book argues that this is a reference to Castor and Polydeuces in Greek mythology. Zeus was the God of thunder.

This is inspired by nothing else than the representation of Castor and Polydeuce (who, as John and James, were twins) sitting to the right and left of almighty Zeus.

All of a sudden these two guys have the power to command fire from the sky. Notice "they said". They always speak as one.

Bede once stated that there was no mythology in the Gospels.

He also stated that the word used in the Gospel which means "rising up" (anastasis) in relation with the rising from the dead, was unique to the NT.

McDonald says that Homer used it in that same way centuries before.

gridleyjason

"Sons of thunder" the book argues that this is a reference to Castor and Polydeuces in Greek mythology. Zeus was the God of thunder.

********
No -- he was the god whose shield was storm and thunder. And Zeus himself is never called "thunder". Not were Castor and Polydueces ever called "sons of thunder". The parallel is strained.

*******
This is inspired by nothing else than the representation of Castor and Polydeuce (who, as John and James, were twins) sitting to the right and left of almighty Zeus.

*******
Castor and Polydueces never have these positions with Zeus and they were certainly not regarded as simultaneously sbeing with Zeus in any way in the time in which Mark was written. There is nothing -- I repeat, nothing -- in what we have from the material and other remains of their cult or in the mythography of the time tells us what was believed about C & P in Mark time or before, suggests that were represented in this way.

*******
All of a sudden these two guys have the power to command fire from the sky. Notice "they said". They always speak as one.

And notice not only (a) how this is drawn from the image of Elijah, not Castor and P. -- who BTW were never known to have fire calling power; but (b) that Mark does not have or show any awareness of this story of James and John anywhere in his Gospel; and (c) that to draw his "Markan" parallel with C & P Macdonald has to go outside of Mark to get the material he needs. What kind of parralle in Mark is that?

You might also want to note that the source that Macdonald references in support of his claims about the extensive popularity of the cult of C & P (Timothy Gantz's _Early Greek Myths_) says no such thing.

This is one of the weakest portions of M's book.

Jason

NOGO

No it isn't.
Zeus has always been associated as being a weather god.
In the Iliad Zeus sent thunderstorms against his enemies.
His favourite weapon was the thunderbolt. He also controlled thunder, lightning and rain.

The name Zeus is associated to the Greek word dios, "bright".
Castor and Polydeuces were called dioscuri.

"in the time in which Mark was written"

So your objection here is one of timing.
Are you claiming that the Greek myth originated from GMark?

It is a good parallel.
If one assumes that Luke based his Gospel on Mark then this addition shows that Luke understood the parallel when he read Mark and added to it.

Yes, there is Elijah and MaDonal mentions that. The problem is that Elijah on the OT is not called a SON of THUNDER and contrary to Zeus, Yahweh was not particularly known as a thrower of lightening bolts as Zeus was.

Vorkosigan

Here on my Earth Christians frequently take an oath called the Nicene Creed which obligates them to believe certain positions on Jesus. Perhaps your earth is different, though.

Vorkosigan

GakuseiDon

Another review of McDonald's book, by a Robert J. Rabel, University of Kentucky, for the Bryn Mawr Classical Review: http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/2000/2000-09-16.html

He concludes:

NOGO

"Parallels do not necessarily signal direct influence,"
True! Unfortunately McDonald does not talk about generalities. He starts by telling us how he finds such parallels and what criteria he uses.

Let me give an example of my own. (Not that I invented it)

Story1
Oedipus Rex

Story 2
Sleeping Beauty

It is useless to point out the differences. There are too many.

Here are some point of similarities

1. Royals have a child

2. The child is cursed

3. Parents do whatever is possible to avoid the event from happening.

4 When the child becomes an adult ...

5. the curse is fulfilled despite all that the parents did to avoid it.


These are enough to establish that the author of Sleeping Beauty

a) Directly or indirectly knew the story of Oedipus Rex
b) Retained the themes above (and maybe others)
c) Decided to base his story on them

This does not in any way prevent the author from getting other themes from other stories.

Denying this link is easy. One can whitewash the issue as the quote above does but the fact remains that the link is there.


This what Bryn Mawr thinks about the issue of the Dioscuri discussed above.

We have one critic saying that this is the least credible item in the book and one saying that it is especially persuasive.

leonarde

Since 'knowing directly or indirectly the story of Oedipus Rex' is rather vague, it is hard to know how to respond to the above. How many folk tales have had some or all of the above elements since Oedipus Rex was written? And how can one prove which folk tales were products of familiarity with same? Might it not be that:

1) royals were seen as specially talented and gifted and therefore appropriate material for such folk tales even as physically beautiful people are husbanded for the motion picture business today?

2) since all stories need a plot line and that usually involves a conflict or trouble, the 'curse at birth' is a natural manifestation of that need?

3) the efforts to avoid the curse are just a logical consequence of 1) and 2)?

4) since curses involve the supernatural and require supernatural nullification the fullfilment of the curse when the child becomes an adult is merely the inevitable of the above pre-conditions?

I don't see familiarity with Oedipus Rex as a necessary precondition for whipping up a story like Sleeping Beauty ....

gregor

GridleyJason

You don't understand the point of affiliation. Baylor is a fundamentalist southern baptist university. It will hire and retain people whose believes are consistent with the University's beliefs. Tell me that a reviewer works at Berkley, and I'll assume the reviewer is not a fundamentalist Xian. Tell me a reviewer works at Baylor, and I'll presume that the person shares that University's uber-conservative belief system.

Admittedly, it's not an absolute guide, but it's certainly probative.

gridleyjason

If you've ever read anything that Dowd has published you'd see just how wrong your inference is, even assuming the validity of the various premises from which it is drawn. But don't take my word for it. Write to Dowd herself and ask her what "oaths" she's taken and whether or not what she's written has been in the service of towing any line.

Here's her e-mail address.

SHARYN_DOWD@BAYLOR.EDU

Jason