aa5874

I was hoping that you would have some information to augment your position. I cannot find any information to catergorically claim Irenaeus or even Marcion were not historical figures.

I have Christianity developing sometime in the 2nd century.

mountainman

Apollonius of Tyana, who appears to have a greater index
of historicity than Jesus, was remarkably born in the same
year as (one of the geneologies of) Jesus [4 BCE], and
is purported by various sources to have lived to his late
nineties. What a remarkable coincidence.

We have fiction writers writing well after the first century
who have to deal with an authentic historical memory of a
philosopher/sage (Apollonius) who lived to his nineties.

We have Eusebius in the fourth century spending alot of
time and effort to discredit the neo-pythagorean sage,
philosopher and author, Apollonius. We have Constantine
doing his best to burn and destroy the writings and the
personages invested with the academic leadership of
"the tribe of neopythagoreans", such as Porphyry, and
that "Porphyrian" Arius.

Hint. Hint.

aa5874

I have found in 'Against Heresies' by Irenaeus a version of Jesus and of Christ that could have lived to be an old man and yet crucified by Pontius Pilate. This Jesus and Christ was presented by Cerinthus according to Irenaeus.

'Against Heresies' book 1 chapter 26, section 1: .....He represented Jesus as having not been born of a virgin, but as being the son of Joseph and Mary according to the ordinary course of human generation, while he nevertheless was righteous, prudent, and wise than other men.

Moreover, after his baptism, Christ descended upon him in the form of a dove from the Supreme Ruler, and that then he proclaimed the Unknown Father, and performed miracles.

But at last Christ departed from Jesus, and that Jesus suffered and rose again while Christ remained impassable, in as much as he was a spiritual being......"

So, according to Cerinthus:
Jesus was physically the son of Mary and Joseph.
Christ came into Jesus when he was baptised.
Jesus did miracles with Christ in him.
Christ left Jesus.
Jesus was crucified and rose again.

Jesus can now live to be an old man.

mountainman

Irenaeus and Marcion are unknown either outside of Eusebius
or outside of other prenicene "christian authors" about whom the
only information we have is that furnished by Eusebius. Have you
read Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History?

Are you aware that our best guesses as to the date of preparation
of Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History are the years 312-324 CE?

Eusebius tenders to Constantine in the fourth century, the NEW
Testament stories, along with his Ecclesiastical History, and
a host of other fabrications. Constantine binds the texts into the
Constantine Bibles c.333 CE ... the deed was then published.

Normally, when a government prepares documents, there is some
correspondence entered into, unless that government is in its
nature, despotic, in which case may rule with absolute power,
as was the case with Constantine.

Your excursions into the historicity of JC probably needs to be
extended to the entire "fabrication of the Galilaeans".

In the words of Edwin Johnson:

The unpleasant part of my task is this: I must contradict incessantly the statements originally made by the publishers [10] of these writings, which were received without effective contradiction, and are still held, almost by the whole world. It is impossible to approach the probable truth until this contradiction shall have been decisively made; and I can hardly hope to carry any readers with me, save those who have been, like myself, harassed by the obscurity which envelopes our past, and who desire to set their minds at rest upon one of the gravest questions that can occupy the minds of serious thinkers.

On the basis of trusting that Eusebius has faithfully preserved
the extracts of literature from Irenaeus, a 2nd century author.

(ie: on the basis that Irenaeus was also not also a fictional
character (of Eusebius Pamphilus of Caesarea)).

J-D

I'm going to treasure that admission.Accepted.

J-D

We know what your opinion is. You've told us often enough. Further repetitions at this point are fatuous.

You should also be aware by this stage, from the frequency with which it has been repeated, that we consider that you have not given adequate grounds for your opinion.

mountainman

While your're at that, see the article Chaitin, Exploring Randomness
related to the historical development of systems
of mathematical logic.

BTW, I have attempted to catch up with your unanswered
questions in a separate thread

Johann_Kaspar

Especially that he is discarding completely the most important document/testimony written in the 1st century.

Johann_Kaspar

I gave you one credible source, but you are refusing to even consider it. So your "wait" is completely hypocritical.

Johann_Kaspar

The founders of xianity have nothing to do with Yeshua. Why would someone worship a criminal? A preacher?! Preaching rebellion and a murderer crucified together with two fellow terrorists.