sophie

Biff the unclean : If free-will can be wrought out of the texts then it must have been there for an 'eternity', waiting for some clever mind to unlock its secrets.

However if free-will's discovery lacks completeness within the texts, then this should point to either of two problems. The texts have been muddled or free-will was misunderstood.

Kruzkal

Your assertions:
1 - X can be wrought out of the texts implies X existed for eternity.
2 - X can be wrought out of the texts implies X contains secrets.
3 - Secrets in assertion 2 have the concept of time e.g. the ability to wait.

What do you mean by "can be wrought out of text?" What is your definition of eternity? How may secrets (information) have the concept of time? Please provide evidence to prove of at least support your assertions 1 to 3.

Another assertion:
4 - Free-will's discovery lacks completeness within the texts if true implies texts have been muddled or free-will was misunderstood. By the way this implies the texts defined free-will with completeness without error!

Is free-will a discovery? What do you mean by lacks completeness? Do you mean not fully defined? Do you mean omniDog could've missed that one out for some obsene (oh I mean divine) reasons? Nope. It can't be. We must have screwed something up somewhere along the way. Afterall, omniDog's perfect words are so clear about free-will, and life, uniververse, and everthing that it must be our own stupidity that we don't understand WTF he/she/it is talking about. Please provide evidence to prove or at least support assertion 4.

__________________

On the 7th day
Man created god in his own image

Division By Zero

One would think that, if there is free will in heaven and people there always choose not to commit evil acts (despite their free will), life on earth is an unnecessary step.

Also, if every human has free will to commit evil acts against other humans, but some choose not to, why couldn't God just refrain from creating those humans who would have chosen evil? After all, wouldn't we still have the free will to choose it, just like in heaven?

Jamie_L

I'm always saying the same things in these free-will discussions, but I love to say them. So, apologies to those who've heard me rant about all this before.

1. Many people have mental illnesses that make them cause suffering. These people represent a situation in which free will is reduced, but suffering is increased, and their condition is not the result of the free will of other humans (unless you try to trot out the Adam and Eve, original sin argument). If God truely valued free will above suffering, these mental illnesses would not exist.

2. Our supposed "free will" is clearly slanted towards causing suffering. If I could heal a wond as easily as I can cause one, I would truely have a free choice between causing and alleviating suffering. If we could end hunger as easily as drop a bomb, or heal the emotional wounds of a rape victim in the amount of time it took to rape her, then we could talk about having true free will to choose between good and evil. As it stands, it's much more difficult to do good - meaning we don't have as much free will to do good as we have to do evil.

3. Imagine the most moral human in the world. He or she is out there somewhere. That person has free will (supposedly) and that person does good more often than not. God knows everything about that person. God created that person. An omnipotent God could creat that person again. Would the duplicate of that person have free will? If God created him/her the first time with free will, surely God could do it again. If God created that person again, would they be as moral as they could be? I see no compelling reason why not. So, God can make a person with free will who chooses to be moral. Why didn't he create us all that way? Free Will does not have to entail as much suffering as we see on this planet.

4. The OP has it right. If God is maximally benevolent, He allows no suffering that is unnecessary. Thus, any suffering we observe must be necessary to God. I.E. that suffering is God's will. Trying to stop that suffering goes against God's will. Acting in opposition to God's will is the very definition of sin. Stopping suffering is a sin.

Jamie

Senlatheil

That is bloody brilliant logic.

Doctor X

Indeed, the problem is the fairy tale cannot account for reality.

"Free will" becomes a dodge. It lets the deity off the hook for the Holocaust and country-western music because it accords blame to the evil men behind both. Of course, that opens the deity to a major moral dilemma--how can something that is good allow something so evil . . . do we just drive by the road accident . . . or do we stop and take bets on who survives [Stop that!--Ed.]

"Free will" becomes a point not worth mooting when we confront unjust suffering that is not a part of will. I have a favorite example, and another poster posted one on another thread.

IF a deity exists he becomes evil for wanting unjust suffering, or he becomes incompetent for not figuring out how to avoid it in his "Plan," or he becomes irrelevant because he does nothing period. Of course, he can also prove a combination of those three . . . depending on what his horoscope says.

More problems exist, of course, if you have a deity of any worth . . . well then he must know everything so whither free will? Why did he not intervene, et cetera.

Regarding the OT--those scriptures with eternal secrets and all of that--it is prehaps unfair to judge the gods there by our standards today. Deities were generally not objects of emulation. They are rather human. The Genesis myths demonstrate this--with a deity that prevents humans from becoming like gods, having to walk around the garden to find Adam . . . all the way to a deiity repenting of killing off his creation.

The writers of such myth were not interested in "free will" debates. Would an "All Loving All Forgiving Big Daddy" cast out his creation? Do you think Adam may have said, "sorry."? That was not the point of the story.

Incidentally, a later retelling--the Lamu Creation Myth which has an Islamic basis--does address that point. Adam begs forgiveness but Eve refuses--the minx! Adam "gentleman he was" turns down Allah's forgiveness so that Eve will not be alone in the world outside of Eden! He volunteers to suffer mortality, disease, hardship, and higher interest rates for her benefit.

. . . and look at how they thank us!

--J.D.

sophie

Kruzkal : you muddled the logical repressentation of what I wrote.

Try again this time include all of the following :

• free will
• texts
• secrets
• eternity

It is a discussion. Perhaps an empty vacuous discussion but a discussion nevertheless.

Crazy logic. The texts will imply this discovery. Why is it a discovery is because it may be an underlying concept within the texts which may or may not have been evident! !

However to obtain the correct logical impulse of the understanding I again suggest following the first paragraph.

winstonjen

So despite having many errors the bible is actually error-free! Wow! I never knew that! Praise! I'm going to church! [/sarcasm]

:boohoo: :boohoo:

sophie

winstonjen : That's a leap of faith, not a leap in logic.

winstonjen

It also requires an ignorance of logic and its implications.