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Old 07-07-2007, 08:29 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by afdave View Post
Sven ...
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And I would answer: The work of tens of thousands of archeologists of the last 150+ years, probably weighing several thousands tons (excluding the buildings they dig up, of course).
This is one of the most silly (rhetorical) questions I've ever read.
You are telling me that we know all about ancient history because of pottery and chariot wheels and swords and such, but we don't know much about history because of the written records? Ridiculous. Think Sven, think.
Of course I think, Dave. Pot. Kettle. Black.
That's exactly why I don't make the claim you strawmanned out of my post.

It's about corroboration. A text which is corroborated well by archeology is considered to be more reliable than one which isn't.

But before you cry "victory" once again (because some things in the bible indeed are corroborated by archeology), of course only ordinary things are considered reliable because of corroboration. That's similar to the diagrams showing the reliability of C14 you still ignore in your formal debate.

Anyone wants to bet who long it will take for Dave to misquote what I wrote above?

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What do you think the entire school of Egyptology is built upon?
Archeology.

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Written records, that's what. Of course there are other non-written artifacts which fill in details, but it's the written records on monuments, tablets, scrolls, etc. that are the real important part.
Dave, you missed four important things:
1) These written records were found be archeologists, not historians. They were dug up.
2) They are mostly very close to the time when these things happened, at best one generation later (inscriptions on buildings, in graves, etc. are of course within months of the actual event). Josephus, on the other hand, wrote at least 2000 years later.
3) Historians don't accept any records - even if they are as close to the events as I pointed out - of extraordinary, even miraculous events at face value.
4) Many of these artifacts were dated using C14 - something which you don't accept. So why do you even discuss these items?
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Old 07-07-2007, 08:29 AM   #22
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I have often wondered (with no evidence at all I hasten to add ) whether the "years" were in fact "months "
That would make Methuselah by my calculation 80.75 years old so lets say 81, which would certainly count as "old" for those times
The problem with this is that, based on when the accounts say they began having children, the Patriarchs were becoming fathers at the ages of six or so.

Not that some haven't used this as an explanation anyway.
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Old 07-07-2007, 08:35 AM   #23
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Oh dear.

Let's run through this step by step shall we?

[1] Human beings produce written records.

[2] Human beings can make mistakes. Therefore any written record should, if it is to be considered reliable, be cross checked independently. This is where artefacts come into play. Something that archaeologists have understood for a long time.

[3] Human beings are also capable of lying, inventing stories etc. Again, another reason why any written record should be subject to careful cross checking to establish its reliability. If an old document claims, for example, that 2,000 years ago, Africa included amongst its inhabitants a race of 50 foot tall humans, then one becomes immediately suspicious for a number of valid scientific reasons. (Try engineering stresses on bone for one). However, if someone digs up a skeleton belonging to one of these 50 foot people, then suddenly that document begins to look a bit more reliable. At that point, we have to engage in some rethinking to accommodate this new discovery. But, UNTIL such remarkable claims as the existence of a race of 50 foot tall giants in Africa are verified independently, we are not required to assume the veracity of those claims a priori. Indeed, the more remarkable the claim being made in an old document, the more reason we have for regarding that claim with suspicion UNTIL said independent verification takes place.

So, given [1] to [3] above, why should we not regard remarkable claims in the Bible with the same suspicion as any other written document? Why should we not subject those claims to the same critical standards? As a corollary, why should we give credence to those remarkable claims in the absence of corroborating evidence?
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Old 07-07-2007, 08:35 AM   #24
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Did Pre-Flood Patriarchs Live ~1000 Years?
What say you?
Well, now that you ask, I say:
"of course not"

Someone - two thousand years closer to the "actual event" than we are - wrote about Daedalus and Icarus flying with wings made of wax and feathers. Does that mean I need to do a lot of research before considering this myth to be pure fantasy?

What say you?
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Old 07-07-2007, 09:00 AM   #25
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am I allowed to laugh or would it lower the tone?
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Old 07-07-2007, 09:05 AM   #26
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I believe in the long life spans. One of my nuttier beliefs.

I think the long life spans are what led to our huge mental advances/jumps. I think that after the mental advances we left our natural habitat and natural way of living and our life spans dropped back down to high but not crazily high. (The Fall.) I think nature goes/went thru combinations of animals looking for ones that can survive and eventually one that can/could survive indefinitely. I think Jesus knew this and when he was talking about eternal life, he meant the real stuff.
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Old 07-07-2007, 09:19 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Sven View Post
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I would ask, "If you reject written historical accounts, then how do you determine ANYTHING in ancient history?"
And I would answer: The work of tens of thousands of archeologists of the last 150+ years...
Well, archaeology is very valuable, but most ancient history is not revealed by it, and most people of antiquity are unknown from it. It's one of the three pillars of our knowledge of the past, not the only one and not, indeed, the most important one.

All the best,

Roger Pearse
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Old 07-07-2007, 09:26 AM   #28
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And how do you know that these Sumerian king lists are being translated properly?
Indeed, how do we? This question should be applicable to the equally ridiculous life spans in Genesis, eh, afdave? Or are they exempt?
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Old 07-07-2007, 09:29 AM   #29
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am I allowed to laugh or would it lower the tone?
Laugh away, I don't think the tone can get any lower.
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Old 07-07-2007, 09:33 AM   #30
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And how do you know that these Sumerian king lists are being translated properly?
Indeed, how do we? This question should be applicable to the equally ridiculous life spans in Genesis, eh, afdave? Or are they exempt?
Of course. It's all open to question. But if, as Josephus claims, we have quite a few ancient sources claiming roughly the same thing, then this carries quite a bit of weight.
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