TomboyMom

Who's accusing anyone of anything? Certainly not me. I'm not accusing Jesus of anything, because there is no such being. I also am not propounding any beliefs--you are. All I have is a lack of belief in what you're propounding.

Y'know, just saying things doesn't make them so. You have to actually make an argument.

Toto

Off the top of my head, there was Sabbatai Sevi, the 17th century Jewish bipolar mystic; and Rabbi Schneerson, the 20th century Lubavitcher some of whose followers thought he was the Jewish Messiah and some of whom may still be waiting for his resurrection.

But it is hard to separate out the Christian influences.

Minimalist

And they are still waiting.

Doug Shaver

None of my research so far suggests that either man's followers elevated him to godhood. There apparently was one document in which Sevi was called "first-begotten son of God," but I think we need more than that to establish a parallel with how Paul and other first-century Christian writers spoke of Jesus.

DBT

[QUOTE=Doug Shaver;4634274]Unlike many other traditions, Judaism doesn't naturally allow for the deification of a human being. Except for the special circumstances at the time of Christ, the social turmoil, the prophecies, and the intense desire for a messiah, it may not have have happened as it did, if at all. Most of the credit for the deification of Jesus can probably be laid at the feet of one man...Paul.

Doug Shaver

You mean, you think Jesus' followers did not consider him divine until Paul convinced them?

DBT

I have no idea what his immediate followers believed him to be - how is that possible to determine?
But in regard to Christian doctrine in general, his true nature and purpose seems to have been a matter of dispute ever since...

Doug Shaver

That's sort of my point, in a roundabout way.

We would have known what his immediate followers believed if they, or someone who knew them, had left a record of their beliefs. But there is no such record. Why is that? It's because he probably had no followers, because he probably never existed.

DBT

That's possible. But if it is the case, and considering that Christianity had already taken root in Pauls time ('Saul' was said to be persecuting Christians) - how did the myth get started so fast without some central figure as a basis?

Did someone start a rumour that simply got out of hand? What was the catalyst? How did the myth get started?

Chris Weimer

By examining the earliest layers in the Gospels, Paul, and the rest of the New Testament. Study after study shows in favor of the earliest Christians being apocalyptic.