Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jedi Mind Trick · 06-17-2005, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mace

Now the only thing keeping me from this is fear.

All I can say is that I know exactly where you're at...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Ingersoll

Do good, for good is good to do; Spurn bribe of heaven and threat of hell.

Mace · 06-17-2005, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadBadBad

Tell me about this fear. When I was about 12, I think I went through this. Is it really fear of hell and what not, or is it fear of people and what they will think about you? I remember both, but somehow the two are linked. Did you believe in God or did you believe in the people that brought him to you? If you're afraid of the unknown, can you make yourself believe in something you don't? Can you believe in invisible green dragons in your backyard?

It's just that I'm afraid to turn from God because of hell, and yet I doubt him at the same time. Yet then I think: "Maybe that's Satan seeding the doubt in my heart."

sharon45 · 06-17-2005, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mace

It's just that I'm afraid to turn from God because of hell, and yet I doubt him at the same time. Yet then I think: "Maybe that's Satan seeding the doubt in my heart."

Since you have to rely purely on faith alone and with that forced standard of choice, what is to stop you from also falling for every other confidence game created?

gudanov · 06-17-2005, 01:11 PM

As a church-going atheist, I have to deal with this as well. The threat of eternal damnation comes up in church quite a bit. Reading apologetics and responses helped me clear my mind. It's all stories. The threats are stories too, nothing more.

Viti · 06-17-2005, 01:15 PM

The way I see it is you either believe or you don't believe. Fear can't tell you whether you honestly think God is real or not, all you can do is go through the motions.

Do you honestly think you can force yourself to believe in something you don't believe in? How does that work?

gudanov · 06-17-2005, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Do you honestly think you can force yourself to believe in something you don't believe in? How does that work?

This is where Pascal's Wager falls apart for me. I never heard a minister say all you have to do is go through the motions, so I don't see how you can not believe and still count yourself as a believer.

BadBadBad · 06-17-2005, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mace

It's just that I'm afraid to turn from God because of hell, and yet I doubt him at the same time. Yet then I think: "Maybe that's Satan seeding the doubt in my heart."

How do you turn from God? I believe you are a real person posting to me on the Internet. I can not believe you are something else or that you don't exist. If you believe in God, how can you decide you don't believe in God? How is that possible?

On the contrary, try to believe in invisible green monsters in the backyard. Can you make yourself believe?

If you doubt or if you are uncertain or if you don't know, is that belief or non-belief?

DBT · 06-17-2005, 08:11 PM

Belief is irrelevant -- at best,if it involves no emotional attachment, it can be useful as simply a guess at the truth --a guess that may prove right or wrong with no hard feelings.

At its worst, belief can be outright self deception. along with all the emotional baggage and conflict that goes with it.

Religion is dependent on the latter state for its very existence.

Thomas II · 06-17-2005, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mace

It's just that I'm afraid to turn from God because of hell, and yet I doubt him at the same time. Yet then I think: "Maybe that's Satan seeding the doubt in my heart."

Mace,
It's not Jesus who is scaring you...

Biff the unclean · 06-17-2005, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas II

Mace,
It's not Jesus who is scaring you...

It isn't?
Then who, might I ask, is it that sends people to Hell?
I know Xians like to say that people send themselves to Hell but that's just stupid. Just ask them if they want to be damned and they will tell you.
It can't be the Devil (am I really talking to adults in the 21 century about boogeymen? shudder) he doesn't send anyone anywhere. Nope there's only one that damns you and that's Jesus himself.

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06-17-2005, 01:11 PM	#34
gudanov Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Kansas City Posts: 80	As a church-going atheist, I have to deal with this as well. The threat of eternal damnation comes up in church quite a bit. Reading apologetics and responses helped me clear my mind. It's all stories. The threats are stories too, nothing more.

06-17-2005, 01:15 PM	#35
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	The way I see it is you either believe or you don't believe. Fear can't tell you whether you honestly think God is real or not, all you can do is go through the motions. Do you honestly think you can force yourself to believe in something you don't believe in? How does that work?

06-17-2005, 08:11 PM	#38
DBT Contributor Join Date: May 2003 Location: ɹǝpunuʍop puɐן ǝɥʇ Posts: 17,906	Belief is irrelevant -- at best,if it involves no emotional attachment, it can be useful as simply a guess at the truth --a guess that may prove right or wrong with no hard feelings. At its worst, belief can be outright self deception. along with all the emotional baggage and conflict that goes with it. Religion is dependent on the latter state for its very existence.

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