Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Acharya S · 01-16-2008, 03:53 PM

Now THAT'S ironic. You just spelled MIGNE wrong.

Have you actually attempted to find anything in the Patrologia Graecae? It can take a very long time to even find the pertinent text online, and then to zero in on the quote itself, in the original Greek, particularly the old font used, can be very difficult. Again, from your remarks it appears as if you haven't ever done any such research, although from your MISSPELLED pretensions you may give the opposite appearance.

Jeffrey, please stop with the childish oneupmanship and hostility. It only reflects poorly upon you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acharya S

No, it is not hyperbole. I have dedicted my life to this work, sometimes up to 16 hours a day. It can take me a number of days to track down ONE quote in Greek or Latin.

Wow. Argumentum ad Misericordiam.

Don't you use the TLG or the PHI 7 or the PLG or Minge (or a spell checker)?

Jeffrey

Toto · 01-16-2008, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

...
And you neglected to say that others on Lt_Antiq said that it was not a fair summary, and certainly not an accurate translation, of the Latin I gave.

Citation?

Quote:

In any case, I'm asking you if what AS "quotes" Macrobius as saying in the Latin text I gave you is really what the Latin text says.

Are you going to answer this or not?

No, I am not. My Latin is a bit too rusty to substitute for the real experts. Besides, Acharya has given you a page number to the translation that she used. Isn't this what you wanted?

kais · 01-16-2008, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

...
And you neglected to say that others on Lt_Antiq said that it was not a fair summary, and certainly not an accurate translation, of the Latin I gave.

Citation?

For what it's worth, I'm also not seeing any such comment to that effect. Threaded view of Lt_Antiq available here.

Jeffrey Gibson · 01-16-2008, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acharya S

The quote in question is on page 5 of Percival Vaughan Davies's translation, as stated in the citation I included on p. 68 of my book.

But what is the book and line number of this quote?

Quote:

I did not paraphrase, nor did I translate it myself.

But why did you not translate it? Are you saying that you never looked up or consulted the original Latin text?

Quote:

Davies's book is difficult to obtain, and I do not possess a copy myself. Nor is it available on Google books.

His translation is available in lots of libraries (and through inter library loan) as is the translation by Paul Fleischman. And the Latin text of Macrobius is readily available both in libraries and online.

In any case, one wonders how how could you quote Davies' translation if you did not have direct access to his book at some point. Are you saying -- when you note that his book is difficult to obtain -- that you yourself never obtained it and that your access to the Davies' quote was only at second hand?

Jeffrey

Ben C Smith · 01-16-2008, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acharya S

Have you actually attempted to find anything in the Patrologia Graecae?

Fortunately, it is becoming easier and easier (though I would still classify it as somewhat difficult).

First, though, mention was made of searching in Latin as well as in Greek. Latin texts can be searched for quite easily on Google Books, as well as on the main Google interface.

As for Greek, and particularly Migne, Google Books is not nearly as useful. However, the main Google interface supports Greek phrase searches (and there is even some rudimentary accounting for accentuation and nonaccentuation!). And much of the PG series is now available on native Greek (usually Orthodox) sites in Unicode rather than mere page scans. One can access these sites from my links page (under Jewish and Christian texts, near the top of the page; look for the Greek site titles and the Migne site that I mark as offering Greek Unicode in PDF). One can open up the appropriate PDF file and use the text search function in Adobe to find Greek text; of course one has to be able to either compose or copy and paste text with Greek letters, but there are solutions for that, too.

Quote:

It can take a very long time to even find the pertinent text online, and then to zero in on the quote itself, in the original Greek, particularly the old font used, can be very difficult.

Aye, it sometimes can. But it is worth it. And when it proves impossible or impractical any conclusions drawn ought to be openly tentative (just throw in a caveat like I have not yet seen this text in the original Greek, but...).

Ben.

Jeffrey Gibson · 01-16-2008, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kais

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Citation?

For what it's worth, I'm also not seeing any such comment to that effect. Threaded view of Lt_Antiq available here.

Ooops. Sorry. This was in off list conversation with members of Lat-Antiq.

FWIW, here's a note from Bill Thayer who is responsible for the online version of the original text of the Saturnalia.

Quote:

ubject:
Re: Macrobius "quote"
Date:
Tue, 15 Jan 2008 14:28:16 -0600
From:
Bill Thayer <petworth at enelope.uchicago.edu>
To:
"Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@comcast.net>
References:
1

>Macrobius is claimed to have said "All the
>gods of the Greek and Roman mythology represent the attributes of the
>one supreme divine power - the SUN."
>
>Is there anything to this claim?

He devotes a chunk of Book I to the subject. The sentence you give is
not, of course, an exact quote, since it places itself outside the
religion.

There's also this that did appear on List:

>

Quote:

--- "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@COMCAST.NET>
> wrote:
>
> > C C wrote:
> >
> > > So, yes, indeed, Macrobius here is most likely
> > setting
> > > forth a very Neoplatonic notion.
> > >
> >
> > But this is missing the point. I am asking if the
> > English quote I gave is an accurate translation of
> > what
> > Macrobius actually says presumably in the
> > Saturnalia? Indeed, is the quote something that
> > Macrobius himself
> > says or something that he attributes to someone
> > else?
> >
> > Jeffrey
> > --
> > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
> > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
> > Chicago, Illinois
> > e-mail jgibson000 at omcast.net
> >
>
> Uh, well, I was looking briefly at Book I trying to
> find that exact passage, which I rather thought was
> there, but I couldn't find it. Some similar things,
> especially at the end of the book, but not quite that.
>

Anyone who wants to see whether the "Davies translation" of the Latin text I gave is considered by members of the Lt-Antiq List to be accurate is free to post it there.

I haven't been able to because my comcast server is not allowing me since midnight last night to post to anything but web based mail.

Jeffrey

Solitary Man · 01-16-2008, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acharya S

Now THAT'S ironic. You just spelled MIGNE wrong.

Perhaps intenshinal?

Quote:

Have you actually attempted to find anything in the Patrologia Graecae? It can take a very long time to even find the pertinent text online, and then to zero in on the quote itself, in the original Greek, particularly the old font used, can be very difficult. Again, from your remarks it appears as if you haven't ever done any such research, although from your MISSPELLED pretensions you may give the opposite appearance.

Actually, it's fairly easy to find references in the Patrologiae Graecae (note the spelling, something you missed...talk about irony. PS - It's also Patrologia Graeca, but never Patrologia Graecae.) Anyway, to my point, it's fairly easy to find references in the PG...all one has to do is enter a decent university library (most should have it, especially if the second-rate library at Memphis has it), open up the book, and jot down the quote. Oh wait, I guess we're in the "digital age" now where "research" means utilizing Google and Google Books, right?

youngalexander · 01-16-2008, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

BTW, here is a very rough draft (I haven't even proof read it once, nor have I vetted all of the info) of my review of Suns of God so far. Keep in mind that this is nowhere near complete and I will probably re-write the whole thing to make it more concise and to address more issues up front, but for those interested in some other issues of scholarship, there are a few more that are addressed in here:

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/temp/SunsofGod.pdf

Have just read this and thort it quite restrained & reasonable. As I mentioned in the other thread, it was probably that Polynesian quote that did it for me. As a physicist, meteorologist and living in the south pacific with some knowledge of its prehistory I closed the book at that point.

However, tis not that upon which I write. A request;

Quote:

At any rate, the early Christians simply had taboos against depictions of Christ, especially of the crucifixion. The lack of these images doesn't mean that there was no concept of the crucifixion, only that there were taboos against depicting it in artwork.

Do you have a citation for this? I would be very pleased to make its acquaintance. A lack of such evidence has been a difficulty in understanding EC art.

Images of Christ begin to appear about the middle of the 3rd C, so these Christians apparently changed their minds? This has puzzled me for some time, but I think that I have recently understood why there were initially no images (~200CE >) at Callixtus. It is an embargo against images of the Father, not those of the 'orthodox' Christ.

Incidentally, the Alexamanos Graffiti could be anything and is not necessarily a reference to Christianity.

Jeffrey Gibson · 01-16-2008, 04:41 PM

[QUOTE=Toto;5095165]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

In any case, I'm asking you if what AS "quotes" Macrobius as saying in the Latin text I gave you is really what the Latin text says.

Are you going to answer this or not?

No, I am not. My Latin is a bit too rusty to substitute for the real experts. Besides, Acharya has given you a page number to the translation that she used. Isn't this what you wanted?

No. I wanted her to tell me where specifically in the Saturnalia the text she "quotes" from Davies appears. In other words, what book and what line of that work is Davies translating?

I also want to know whether the translation she now tells us is not hers is accurate and how she knows it is if she's never looked at the Latin.

Jeffrey

GakuseiDon · 01-16-2008, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acharya S

In his fervor to DENY that Christians worship the sun TERTULLIAN HAS IRONICALLY PRESERVED THE SUN-WORSHIPPING CONTENTION AGAINST THEM - do you understand? If he hadn't said anything about it, and in consideration of the vast destruction of data from the ancient world, we may never have even known about these denials in antiquity. The fact that this retort against sun worshipping exists is not only worthy of note but provides us with critical clues. I am neither remiss in relating this quote, nor in commenting on it that, while it was designed to deny sun worshipping, it ironically admits that such is how Christianity was perceived - and how I and many others to this day perceive it in reality.

And how about the charges of incest and cannibalism rebuted by Athenagoras? Do you believe these to be ironically preserved reality?

Exactly. That's the problem. Dave31 is correct by saying that Christians were charged with sun worship. The problem is extrapolating from that whether Christians were influenced by such beliefs. It may be possible, but it is no more a reliable indicator than charges of incest and infanticide. THAT's the problem with Acharya's analysis.

From the pagans' charge ("you face east when you pray, therefore you worship the sun!") and Tertullian's response ("you move your lips in the direction of the sunrise, therefore YOU worship the sun!") sun worship was apparently regarded as a bad thing by all at that time, possibly as being primitive or barbaric. This itself might provide evidence towards a more primitive practice of sun worship, perhaps supporting notions of astrotheology. (It would be interesting to see how the "Sol Invictus" concept grew in the following centuries, given what seems to be the apparent negative spin on sun worship in Tertullian).

In short: Tertullian may be useful for Acharya's theory, but her analysis seems to be WAY off track.

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