TomT

Since there were so many comments, I will just respond to the latest one, as hopefully it summarizes.

aa5874,

I already know I am right (and fully proven), so I don't need to wait till I die, and besides, since I am right, to wait to die would be too late, because then we would be dead. That is why we know now-it's called new birth, and the Holy Spirit is given in our spirit. We sense this promise given by God.

In your case, since all the evidence is against you and it is all for Christ, then there is only two possibilities:

1) either you will cease to exist, you can do anything you like and it doesn't matter, you can murder thousands of people, rape children, steal from your family, and nuke cities; or

2) there are consequences which is manifested after you are resurrected, in which Christ was resurrected and raptured, and He said the only way to salvation is through Him. None were more selfless than Christ, not have a better testimony of the apostles than Christ. None fulfilled prophecies more than Christ, and none had deeper teachings than did Christ. Seems like a no brainer.

TomT

The apostles went to their death as eyewitnesses of the resurrection. There are no other eyewitnesses of other physical resurrections, but just second hand testimony martyrs of other religions.

This sets Christianity apart.

TomT

The various books of the NT were written not 100 years later, but in the 50's,60's,70's and Revelation written 95 AD. In fact the mention of Paul meeting Peter and James in the Jerusalem council soon after the death of Christ and 3 years after Paul was saved was within 5 years of Jesus' death. The creeds Paul talks about were creeds he did not come up with but came from discussions with Peter and James in the council to make sure they got it right and were in agreement, and they were.

So these creeds were immediate, not 20 or 30 years later, but soon after the death of Christ. This means there is no possibility of legend. They taught the resurrection of Christ and they died for their eyewitness of His resurrection.

Since you have no reason to call them liars, you would then be made a liar of for hell when you are judged at Great White Throne.

TomT

Mary, the mother of Jesus, was told her Son would be God the Messiah, but even she sinned in the Bible no less than 5 times recorded and preserved in Scripture. This shows that even though she knew her Son would be God, she was still born in the flesh and needed all that salvation offers to overcome the flesh.

chapka

It doesn't. If you're going to come here with the pretense of having a discussion, at least have the courtesy to read those who have responded to you.

This kind of transformative religious experience is reported, in similar terms, by the followers of many other religions as well. They're just as certain that they've been touched by God as you are. What are they actually experiencing, and how do you know that that's not what you're experiencing, too?

Actually, I've explained in some detail why none of your evidence is relevant or probative of anything.

[QUTOE]1) either you will cease to exist, you can do anything you like and it doesn't matter, you can murder thousands of people, rape children, steal from your family, and nuke cities; or[/QUOTE]

Are you honestly saying that before you were born again, you saw nothing wrong with raping children? Because if so, I hope you remain a Christian.

It's worth noting that there are many, many places where the vast majority of the population believes both (1) that the individual soul has no continuation after death and (2) that it's wrong to rape children and murder people. The idea that only Christians "get" this deep truth is insulting and condescending.

Why is this the only other option? There are plenty of other after-death scenarios out there. Hell, there are plenty of other Christian after-death scenarios out there.

Bullshit. Plenty of prophets have allowed themselves to be killed for what they believed in.

Bullshit. Plenty of prophets left writings of their own and we have more detailed and more unbiased testimony about almost every other prophet than we do about Jesus.

What evidence do we have other than the Bible itself that Jesus fulfilled a single prophecy?

Funny how his followers can't seem to agree on what those teachings are, isn't it?

You said it; I didn't.

TomT

So let's summarize simply in a minimal facts approach of the resurrection and deity of Christ:

1) Apostles believed and knew they saw Jesus physically resurrected.
2) Paul, an outsider skeptic, saw Jesus resurrected.
3) James, a family skeptic, saw Jesus resurrected.
4) They all died for this testimony of the resurrection.
5) They met with each other and agreed they saw Jesus resurrected.
6) The tomb was empty, the Jews agreed, Rome agrees.
7) Jesus said He is God, He prophesied His resurrection.
8) The law and the prophets prophesied Jesus coming as God.
9) The miracles performed by Jesus were in keeping with His love.
10) The teachings of Christ are the greatest teachings in human history.
11) Jesus never sinned; only man that never sinned; He was the most selfless man that ever lived.
12) We are all sinners, we all need to be saved from that sin which leads to death and the second death. The only way God can forgive is if you accept His perfect forgiveness in the sacrifice of the perfect sinless savior to be the salvation for your sins. Anything less than this perfection would be a false salvation.

That is that.

TomT

The martyrdom for a lie is not the same thing as a martyrdom for a truth. And an eyewitness martyrdom of God in His resurrection is different than a martyrdom of hearing about such martyrdom and yourself being a martyrdom on second hand knowledge.

TomT

Since the number of people saved is very small to the number of people not saved, it is illogical to think those that saved disagree, for we see in the Bible, they did agree. Just because others disagree, does not take away from the establishment of the perfect harmony and agreement witnessed in the 66 books of God's Word.

chapka

And when were the copies we have written? And how many versions did they go through before they got to us? And who actually wrote which parts of which book?

Now you're conflating events in the books with when they were written.

What "creeds" are you talking about?

If I told you that my friend Bob could raise people from the dead, would you have reason to call me a liar? How is this any different?

chapka

Then why did Paul have to write all those letters setting people straight? And why do the various New Testament books contradict each other?

Of course it does. If people can't agree on what it means, it absolutely means that this "perfect harmony and agreement" you're talking about does not exist. That's common sense.